PoE is punishing, not difficult. Video to clarify the difference.

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raics a écrit :

You know, providing more info doesn't make your game any less niche, those that aren't interested don't have to read it, a good example are D&D games which usually have more detailed info available for those that need it and are the very definition of niche. And you don't need to have floating tooltips 'place a gem in socket and right click to remove' flying left and right. Just a short, tiny manual with indexed content from those three opening posts from game mechanics thread would do wonders, and it's almost no effort at all. So why not?

That's the whole thing that makes the game Niche, and letting he player discovering himself the mechanics of the game is imho a part of that. Now, some infos could probably be given more easily, but not too much.

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deteego a écrit :

In fact, the whole MOBA genre in general is as niche as you can get

This is purely and totally wrong, I think that you are misunderstanding the word "niche".

Nope, MOBA originated from AoS, which is a wc3 mod that attained a cult status aimed at a specific audience. MOBA was so niche, that the first game that was released in non mod form happened 10+ years after the genre was created as a mod (i.e. LoL, League of Legends).

The whole genre is so niche that there is only one game in that genre that has a non niche target audience, and that is LoL

PoE, on the other hand, is basically an exact copy of an older game (D2) with uptuned mechanics, a game that was designed to be played by a massive target audience

So yes, you can call PoE niche, its about as niche as McDonalds. The only reason that people think that PoE is niche is because Chris is giving PoE the hardcore label, but thats just it, its label. I can call an elephant an orange as much as I want, but it won't help my argument

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Fruz a écrit :

That's the whole thing that makes the game Niche, and letting he player discovering himself the mechanics of the game is imho a part of that. Now, some infos could probably be given more easily, but not too much.

Sorry, man, but niche doesn't have to mean the game is also unaccessible.

Look at, for instance, hardcore driving simulations. They're generally simple, intuitive and very hard, but I'm willing to bet anyone can master them in time, they're niche because a very small number of people finds them fun, not because of difficulty itself. Knowing game rules in PoE isn't nearly the same as turning on ABS and steering assist in driving sims.

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deteego a écrit :

Nope, MOBA originated from AoS, which is a wc3 mod that attained a cult status aimed at a specific audience. MOBA was so niche, that the first game that was released in non mod form happened 10+ years after the genre was created as a mod (i.e. LoL, League of Legends).

The whole genre is so niche that there is only one game in that genre that has a non niche target audience, and that is LoL

So you are basically stuck on DoTA 1 and consider that the video game's world has not changed since then.
The target audience is what makes a game niche by definition, if the audience of a game is very large = the game is not niche.
League of Legends is the opposite of a niche game, which means that one cannot say that a MoBA is a niche game anymore, and it has been like this for a long time already.

I'm gonna repeat myself again but you are just misunderstanding the word "niche".

Path of Exile targets and appeals to a niche audience, that makes it a niche game, period.

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raics a écrit :

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Fruz a écrit :

That's the whole thing that makes the game Niche, and letting he player discovering himself the mechanics of the game is imho a part of that. Now, some infos could probably be given more easily, but not too much.

Sorry, man, but niche doesn't have to mean the game is also unaccessible.

Noone said that.
Unaccessible ( which is not the case obviously btw ), doesn't have to mean that a game is not niche either.

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So you are basically stuck on DoTA 1 and consider that the video game's world has not changed since then.
The target audience is what makes a game niche by definition, if the audience of a game is very large = the game is not niche.

DotA (1 or 2)'s target audience has never been for mass market. It has so many players because its a very well designed game, but in regards to accessibility, depth, complexity and mechanics, its much more "difficult" than PoE

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League of Legends is the opposite of a niche game, which means that one cannot say that a MoBA is a niche game anymore, and it has been like this for a long time already.

Yes I can, because if an entire genre only has one game that appeals to the mass market, by definition its the most niche genre out there when you compare it with everything else. Practically every single aRPG that isn't knox has been designed to hit mass market, the most popular aRPG (D2) was designed to hit mass market. PoE's design is unintentionally meant to hit mass market, the fact that the devs want it do otherwise is irrelevant

Everyone wants their game to breakout but I don't think you can really call DOTA niche at this point. I just happened to check out some streams last night to see what it was about and it looks very similar to starcraft/warcraft.

D2 is an arpg that went viral, many people who aren't ARPG fans fell in love and never touched another game in the genre (myself included until POE). I hardly think a game with 500k players on a Tuesday can really call itself niche at this point. The only difference between that and something like CoD is mass marketing. It would be like calling WoW niche. The game could once be called that because it was a niche market but it blew the doors open and made the genre for mass appeal.

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Moosifer a écrit :

Everyone wants their game to breakout but I don't think you can really call DOTA niche at this point. I just happened to check out some streams last night to see what it was about and it looks very similar to starcraft/warcraft.

DotA is actually designed as a niche game, its design intentions have never changed from its incarnation like 8 years ago, and its design has always been the most niche one out there, a genre that is basically the bastard child mix of many other genres

You saying that D2 isn't niche because you watched some videos and claim it looks like wc3/sc is the most retarded reasoning I have heard of. Have you actually played the game for a significant amount of time? Because I have been playing it for almost a decade, and I can say in terms of playstyle and design, its nothing like Wc3 or SC, or any other games out there, which makes it niche by definition

Yes DotA2 is popular, but unlike LoL, the game was never designed to be popular, and it was never aimed to be popular. Its popularity is a side effect

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Moosifer a écrit :

D2 is an arpg that went viral, many people who aren't ARPG fans fell in love and never touched another game in the genre (myself included until POE). I hardly think a game with 500k players on a Tuesday can really call itself niche at this point. The only difference between that and something like CoD is mass marketing. It would be like calling WoW niche. The game could once be called that because it was a niche market but it blew the doors open and made the genre for mass appeal.

Read the point above, and WoW was never designed to be niche, its basically a better version of Everquest. Blizzard in general never design games that are niche

What the fuck are we even arguing at this point?

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Moosifer a écrit :

What the fuck are we even arguing at this point?

My point is that a lot of people argue that PoE is niche in its design and "hardcoreness", my argument is that in reality, thats further than the truth.

More accurately, PoE's nicheness is a facade, mainly due to the fact of it basically copying the formula, back to front, of the most non niche genre+game, you can think of. The only reason that people call PoE niche is because GGG calls it hardcore

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deteego a écrit :

[...]

Okay, now you are really ridiculing yourself honestly.
Talking to you is like talking to a wall there, because it seems that you put different meanings that the rest of the world in english words.

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Moosifer a écrit :

What the fuck are we even arguing at this point?

^
It's getting completely out of topic.