Permanent Loot Allocation ... for .. why?

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nynyny a écrit :

Two possibilities exist. They either changed their oppinion because of the weather/had a sudden change of heart or because a big part of the community kept complaining. Doesnt need a genius to figure out whats more likely.

Or option three: a little of both. With the new one added, it doesn't need a genius to figure out what's more likely.

The truth of the matter is that the GGG team did have at least a partial change of heart; maybe they still had a preference for SA, but also saw some of the good in loot options (it's not that the pros don't exist, it's that they're outweighed by the cons). That, and a massively long forum thread expressing the frustration of hundreds of users.

By the way, PA and loot option supporters: I don't pick apart your logic errors alone. I'm not actually that partisan.

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LostForm a écrit :

I just know partying got a whole lot more advantageous, and made the game a lot easier, a lot more faceroll. I am sorry, I just do not agree that the only point of playing an arpg is to sit at max level with the best gear in game. I get that is what the nu-diablo fans desire. But they have forsaken pretty much the entire game, to sit at the very end and play pixel-stock broker, buying low and selling high, feeding RMT sites for real money or forum gold. The play style was the motivating factor behind the auction house in diablo 3, and the motivating factor behind needing 'loot options'. It removes a large part of the gamesmanship (a dying idea) while playing PoE, and moves it to the auction house and trade chat. Path of Wall Street.

2 responses:
1. It's not exactly fair to say that the max-out-quickly crowd all are into RMT. Some do; the vast majority don't.
2. Despite that, I am in love with this post and have sex with it if it was a woman.

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Sickness a écrit :

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LostForm a écrit :

Path of Wall Street.

I agree with pretty much all that! ARPGs are not about sitting at max level with one character with the best gear. Trading should barely exist. I am all for self found!
But that has nothing to do with the loot system. It's ridiculous to make that connection, your argument is a logical fallacy, deliberate or not.. If you truly believe that PA leads to that stuff then you can now finally relax, because it doesn't! You have been misinformed.

No, sir, you have been misinformed. Partying is by far the most overpowered means to wealth in this game, and to say anything else betrays that you either haven't gotten to maps yet, that you're doing it wrong, or that you're simply denying how awesome map grouping is. And now you don't even need to worry about guarding your drops!

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thepmrc a écrit :

Really, saying that PA ups your chances for stronger drops is just ludicrous. FFA increases your chances for stronger drops because you have the potential to pick up every fucking item that dropped.

Well, yeah. The potentially overpowered bonus comes from partying itself, not the loot allocation choice. However, these are essentially your options:

• Potentially gain a massive sevenfold increase in loot-per-map over solo, but you need to compete against your fellow party members, which is a form of effort, and if you really suck you might even be worse off, even though the average advantage over solo is 3.5 to 1.
• Just straight-up enjoy a 3.5-to-1 non-map loot advantage over solo.

The first of these at least has a pretense at balance. The latter is just obviously OP as shit.

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LostForm a écrit :

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thepmrc a écrit :

As far as game difficulty goes. Did the monsters hit you harder in SA/FFA games?

They absolutely do hit ranged characters harder in SA/FFA games, as the ranged players have to commit to the dog pile to get loot. How are you not seeing this? And yes, players had to deal with some mechanics to grab loot that they can safely ignore when the loot is promised to them anyways.

I just want to take a moment to say this unabashedly: fuck ranged, viva melee.
So you want to say that melee is just fine in PA, and doesn't need some form an advantage? You want to cry about how ranged isn't all it's cracked up to be? Come at me, bros. Come at me.

wait ppl are qqing that other people have other opinions? o right, im on the internet....

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Pubbing right now means accepting the fact that the loot is perma allocated, you dont really have a choice, especially if your build isnt capable of soloing (or it simply being extremely inefficient).

Those are the same ppl who would kick you out of their group if u keep looting .... "their"... stuff, so its not like anything has changed.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

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Sickness a écrit :

I agree with pretty much all that! ARPGs are not about sitting at max level with one character with the best gear. Trading should barely exist. I am all for self found!
But that has nothing to do with the loot system. It's ridiculous to make that connection, your argument is a logical fallacy, deliberate or not.. If you truly believe that PA leads to that stuff then you can now finally relax, because it doesn't! You have been misinformed.

No, sir, you have been misinformed. Partying is by far the most overpowered means to wealth in this game, and to say anything else betrays that you either haven't gotten to maps yet, that you're doing it wrong, or that you're simply denying how awesome map grouping is. And now you don't even need to worry about guarding your drops!

That is not relevant to the point I was making, at all. Seriously, if there was an award for making a completely irrelevant reply to an already ongoing discussion you would get it!

He was saying that because there is a group of people that want A, B and C, and since A and B is bad C must be bad aswell. And that if you want C you also want A and B.
He has even dropped that argument by now, because it was stupid.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

No, sir, you have been misinformed. Partying is by far the most overpowered means to wealth in this game, and to say anything else betrays that you either haven't gotten to maps yet, that you're doing it wrong, or that you're simply denying how awesome map grouping is. And now you don't even need to worry about guarding your drops!

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

Well, yeah. The potentially overpowered bonus comes from partying itself, not the loot allocation choice. However, these are essentially your options:

Potentially gain a massive sevenfold increase in loot-per-map over solo, but you need to compete against your fellow party members, which is a form of effort, and if you really suck you might even be worse off, even though the average advantage over solo is 3.5 to 1.
Just straight-up enjoy a 3.5-to-1 non-map loot advantage over solo.

The first of these at least has a pretense at balance. The latter is just obviously OP as shit.

Don't get this wrong, but I'm glad you're not a game designer. You are actually correct that MP play is WAY to strong, but if THIS (FFA loot) is in your opinion the soltuion... or actually any solution to the problem at all, you must be kidding.

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You mean you play a ranged character solo, but ranged has loot-grabbing issues in party so you're considering rerolling a melee character?

Again, if you really believe that this is the best you can do to motivate people to play melee, than I can just shake my head.

Forcing people with a shitty mechanic, that has oh so many drawbacks, in a playstyle is the worst design possible.

I don't get the commotion whatsoever. Don't like it don't play in a group with it.

I played melee and I didn't always get the stuff I wanted. Some ranged characters kill groups much more efficiently while I'm plugging away on a rare they're killing a group and looting. OR a mob will cave in on me and out will pop something nice. I'm busy trying not to die range runs in, grabs runs back.

There's no perfect cure all so options for each subtype makes sense. Really, who cares how other people play if you don't play with them. Get over it.

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Sickness a écrit :

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

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Sickness a écrit :

I agree with pretty much all that! ARPGs are not about sitting at max level with one character with the best gear. Trading should barely exist. I am all for self found!
But that has nothing to do with the loot system. It's ridiculous to make that connection, your argument is a logical fallacy, deliberate or not.. If you truly believe that PA leads to that stuff then you can now finally relax, because it doesn't! You have been misinformed.

No, sir, you have been misinformed. Partying is by far the most overpowered means to wealth in this game, and to say anything else betrays that you either haven't gotten to maps yet, that you're doing it wrong, or that you're simply denying how awesome map grouping is. And now you don't even need to worry about guarding your drops!

That is not relevant to the point I was making, at all. Seriously, if there was an award for making a completely irrelevant reply to an already ongoing discussion you would get it!

He was saying that because there is a group of people that want A, B and C, and since A and B is bad C must be bad aswell. And that if you want C you also want A and B.
He has even dropped that argument by now, because it was stupid.

no, you missed the entire point of the argument. Playing in party with no loot tension is decidedly easier game play than playing in a party with loot tension.

If you form a party of people that work out loot tension, in order to make play easier, you have overcome a large (and only) obstacle of group play. To remove the gamemanship required to overcome said obstacle puts the game on rails and opens a gateway to end game. And I do think most people riding the rails are interested in pixel brokerage rather than engaging gameplay.

I agree I did imply all min-maxers are bad for the game, though I did not intend to. The implication was made as an exclamation point, not as a literal net condemning the art(science) of min/maxing a character. I do apologize to the exceptions, but not to the rule.

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Sickness a écrit :

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

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Sickness a écrit :

I agree with pretty much all that! ARPGs are not about sitting at max level with one character with the best gear. Trading should barely exist. I am all for self found!
But that has nothing to do with the loot system. It's ridiculous to make that connection, your argument is a logical fallacy, deliberate or not.. If you truly believe that PA leads to that stuff then you can now finally relax, because it doesn't! You have been misinformed.

No, sir, you have been misinformed. Partying is by far the most overpowered means to wealth in this game, and to say anything else betrays that you either haven't gotten to maps yet, that you're doing it wrong, or that you're simply denying how awesome map grouping is. And now you don't even need to worry about guarding your drops!

That is not relevant to the point I was making, at all. Seriously, if there was an award for making a completely irrelevant reply to an already ongoing discussion you would get it!

He was saying that because there is a group of people that want A, B and C, and since A and B is bad C must be bad aswell. And that if you want C you also want A and B.
He has even dropped that argument by now, because it was stupid.

He was saying that PA makes advancement far quicker, ensuring quicker progression to "max" gear, that this is what the nu-Diablo types want so they can then sit back and play market simulator, and that this type of playstyle shouldn't be catered to; this much rings true with me. He also said they then engage in RMT; this part I think is petty name-calling and pretty reprehensible (I forgave him though).

You said you agree with these points, especially the parts about quicker "max" progression and playing market simulator, but that it has nothing to do with loot allocation, and that he was making logic errors in drawing a correlation.

I specifically attacked the idea that loot allocation is irrelevant, because party play is a huge part of min/max'ed progression, and PA is Party Play For Dummies.

It's the alleged logic errors in his post which are irrelevant to the current line of discussion; I wasn't and am not relying solely on his argument.

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Asphael a écrit :

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

No, sir, you have been misinformed. Partying is by far the most overpowered means to wealth in this game, and to say anything else betrays that you either haven't gotten to maps yet, that you're doing it wrong, or that you're simply denying how awesome map grouping is. And now you don't even need to worry about guarding your drops!

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

Well, yeah. The potentially overpowered bonus comes from partying itself, not the loot allocation choice. However, these are essentially your options:

Potentially gain a massive sevenfold increase in loot-per-map over solo, but you need to compete against your fellow party members, which is a form of effort, and if you really suck you might even be worse off, even though the average advantage over solo is 3.5 to 1.
Just straight-up enjoy a 3.5-to-1 non-map loot advantage over solo.

The first of these at least has a pretense at balance. The latter is just obviously OP as shit.

Don't get this wrong, but I'm glad you're not a game designer. You are actually correct that MP play is WAY to strong, but if THIS (FFA loot) is in your opinion the soltuion... or actually any solution to the problem at all, you must be kidding.

I'm not going to hold it against you, because any discussion of this was several pages back, but I believe that the correct move for GGG was not to implement loot choices, but instead to add systems that allowed party leaders to make informed choices about potential ninjas; for example, SA with a system that actually tracks how often a character ninjas items, displayed for all to see. I agree that being forced to make decisions in the blind about strangers is an unfair situation, and thus I concede that the old SA system was insufficient. Thus, my argument is not that SA was somehow perfect, but that the proper course was to improve it rather than render it utterly moot by adding loot options.

Oh, and FFA loot isn't in there anywhere.

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Asphael a écrit :

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You mean you play a ranged character solo, but ranged has loot-grabbing issues in party so you're considering rerolling a melee character?

Again, if you really believe that this is the best you can do to motivate people to play melee, than I can just shake my head.

They need all the motivation they can get.

There are far too many unfair interpretations of why each side wants what they want. Because of that its rare to see a real discussion between two people that actually learn about the other person.

FFA people can't get off assuming that everyone who doesn't like FFA is only in it for an easier game to get items quicker. This is probably the most common accusation.

Permanent people usually accuse FFA people of wanting easier players to ninja loot from or that FFA people just want to feel superior to other players.

While there are some people that probably fit each of these descriptions they are unfair stereotypes at best.

If people want a fair discussion on this topic then I suggest dropping the stereotypes and actually listening to the other side.

After listening for so very long I believe FFA people are very disappointed because they expected a far different game than what we have today. Scroties vision of the game would be A LOT different than what we are playing now. I don't see any possible way GGG would back track to achieve what these players are looking for.

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iamstryker a écrit :

There are far too many unfair interpretations of why each side wants what they want. Because of that its rare to see a real discussion between two people that actually learn about the other person.

FFA people can't get off assuming that everyone who doesn't like FFA is only in it for an easier game to get items quicker. This is probably the most common accusation.

Permanent people usually accuse FFA people of wanting easier players to ninja loot from or that FFA people just want to feel superior to other players.

So close to being a decent post... but what about SA people?

And no, I don't think that everyone who goes PA is only in it for an easier game. I think that some of them are, and there is no check or balance on those people. I also think that some SA and FFA people are in it for an easier game, and that there are insufficient checks and balances on those people. However, insufficient > zero, and adding better checks and balances to SA is the best path to a situation where party bonus is strong and encourages group play, while balancing it by requiring additional work.