A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

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Kiss_Me_Quick a écrit :

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

By the number of replies since yesterday it's clear people aren't terribly interested in spending that free time in game.

It doesn't matter if P2W is mass produced or not, it's still pay to win.

It doesn't matter if you use your paid advantages against you, it's still a privilege which cannot be accessed without money.

People who TRULY want to P2W can do that in absolutely every game, just not through official channels.
I think it's just hilarious that people defend stash tabs as not being P2W and boasting how the game is "Just cosmetics, no P2W, all legit br0s!".

I personally have nothing against stash tabs as they have been for a while and although it's a completely new topic now - the "pay to win feature" is becoming a pillar on which the game is being designed around, producing a worse end product than what could have been without it.

I'm sure we can agree to disagree, but simply in that you choose the broadest classification despite you knowing full well what PoE and other F2P gameswould look like if it was "true" P2W.

I may or may not have more stashes than you, but you clearly will always have more in game wealth than I will. My tabs didn't "guarantee magic levels of success" and the same results can be achieved (and even surpassed) without a single monetary investment by any player skilled enough and properly motivated.

On the other hand, just imagine if RMT was the norm, and instead of currency drops items were paid for with real money. But then again, if that were the case, I'd never have touched PoE to begin with.

Jesus this thread is like the Mountain, it's just wont fucking die.


Still no one in P2W camp has explained whatsoever what in the actual fuck you are winning with stash tabs.

Is wealth acquisition from faster trading winning in PoE? Thats winning?

Because surely stash tabs dont help drop rates, or mechanical understanding, or your ability to dodge and recognize attacks, or Playing flask piano, or maximizes skill point placement.

If I buy tabs right now, what advantage have I gained? What did I just win?

Hell even stash tabs dont help your items sell unless you both, understand the market and pricing, and also are available anytime someone wants to buy your items.

Again WHAT DO YOU WIN WITH STASH TABS.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

winning?

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

"winning"

Still a straw man not worth commenting on. $$$ -> Advantages = P2W. Simple as that.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

But the game is free

Still doesn't change the fact that stash tabs are P2W.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

Now, let's bring up a "real" case of P2W that got EA

Sorry but tabs are still P2W. You are just pointing at extreme examples in an attempt to take away the spotlight from the stash tabs. It's like claiming that it's okay to steal stuff because there are drug dealers and murderers on this planet.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

OwO what's this?

my man you ignoring comments or what? it's already explained that P2W doesn't literally mean winning, it means getting an advantage over others by paying real money. get that in your head damn.

If you really want to go with the "win" shit then i guess you win the sense of pride and accomplishment from not having to go through the 4 basic stash tab hell the that the less fortunate players go through.

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

Now, let's bring up a "real" case of P2W that got EA

Sorry but tabs are still P2W. You are just pointing at extreme examples in an attempt to take away the spotlight from the stash tabs. It's like claiming that it's okay to steal stuff because there are drug dealers and murderers on this planet.

Actually --

Claiming more stash tabs automatically means more winning is the equivalent to claiming League of Legends bronzies can make challenger by purchasing boosts. More space doesn't guarantee more money, it does however eliminate some extra legwork, only to eventually realize that same trading convenience is offset by hoarding items that may potentially sell for little profit instead of devoting that time to finding stuff truly worth selling.

In their case, the problem they had was people literally paying higher skilled players to carry them under the table... you know, to actually win.

Only today do people call truth "extreme". There's a reason why the EA debacle actually made national news versus a thread or few on a game forum.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

If I buy tabs right now, what advantage have I gained? What did I just win?

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Kiss_Me_Quick a écrit :

Paid stash tab = listing & removing item in 5 seconds
No P2W tab = listing & removing item in 1 minute + even more spam after selling

Any definition which you can find labels "pay to win" as something which gives you an advantage over non-paying users. For each trade, you are able to run an extra map over someone who doesn't pay.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

I'm sure we can agree to disagree, but simply in that you choose the broadest classification despite you knowing full well what PoE and other F2P gameswould look like if it was "true" P2W.

I may or may not have more stashes than you, but you clearly will always have more in game wealth than I will. My tabs didn't "guarantee magic levels of success" and the same results can be achieved (and even surpassed) without a single monetary investment by any player skilled enough and properly motivated.

On the other hand, just imagine if RMT was the norm, and instead of currency drops items were paid for with real money. But then again, if that were the case, I'd never have touched PoE to begin with.

I cannot classify something as less pay to win or more pay to win - it's still pay to win. I agree that seeing character powerlevels bought directly is more discouraging but paid time savers / helpful features are still pay to win.

Auto loot pick up paid feature wouldn't be "true" pay to win by your definition as well but it still is pay to win because it's an advantage over other players.
More inventory space wouldn't be pay to win in your books yet again, but it is pay to win!
Do stash tabs become P2W once you need to spend 20 minutes to list an item? 30? 60?

RMT in PoE is pretty bad tho, but that's another topic.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

it's called football not soccer >:(

actually, in delve and synthesis league more tabs does in fact = more money since you can just fill up dump tabs and the money will come to you while you play the game collecting more items for dump tabs and earning more money. there's also essence/div cards/currency/map tabs that can save whole tabs worth of space meaning you got more room to place items for sell.

not p2w btw

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Kiss_Me_Quick a écrit :

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

If I buy tabs right now, what advantage have I gained? What did I just win?

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Kiss_Me_Quick a écrit :

Paid stash tab = listing & removing item in 5 seconds
No P2W tab = listing & removing item in 1 minute + even more spam after selling

Any definition which you can find labels "pay to win" as something which gives you an advantage over non-paying users. For each trade, you are able to run an extra map over someone who doesn't pay.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

I'm sure we can agree to disagree, but simply in that you choose the broadest classification despite you knowing full well what PoE and other F2P gameswould look like if it was "true" P2W.

I may or may not have more stashes than you, but you clearly will always have more in game wealth than I will. My tabs didn't "guarantee magic levels of success" and the same results can be achieved (and even surpassed) without a single monetary investment by any player skilled enough and properly motivated.

On the other hand, just imagine if RMT was the norm, and instead of currency drops items were paid for with real money. But then again, if that were the case, I'd never have touched PoE to begin with.

I cannot classify something as less pay to win or more pay to win - it's still pay to win. I agree that seeing character powerlevels bought directly is more discouraging but paid time savers / helpful features are still pay to win.

Auto loot pick up paid feature wouldn't be "true" pay to win by your definition as well but it still is pay to win because it's an advantage over other players.
More inventory space wouldn't be pay to win in your books yet again, but it is pay to win!
Do stash tabs become P2W once you need to spend 20 minutes to list an item? 30? 60?

RMT in PoE is pretty bad tho, but that's another topic.

That's absurd. Mearly having the tabs means nothing. You could fill it with shit, price items terrible, not be available to sell, and it goes on and on.

You make it sound like tabs are a magic pot of gold that you put itmes in and currency just flows out.

Even then if you amass wealth, if you dont know how to use the currency, on what items, or their relative worth, it pointless.

Then after all that it doesnt actually help you in-game. You still have to know what the fuck you are doing.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

That's absurd. Mearly having the tabs means nothing. You could fill it with shit, price items terrible, not be available to sell, and it goes on and on.

You make it sound like tabs are a magic pot of gold that you put itmes in and currency just flows out.

Even then if you amass wealth, if you dont know how to use the currency, on what items, or their relative worth, it pointless.

Then after all that it doesnt actually help you in-game. You still have to know what the fuck you are doing.

I sold something 400-1,000 items per day - only with stash tabs.

Now think about how many items would I have been able to sell without them; it takes ~ 14-18 hours of only listing and delisting for all these items without tabs.

How can ever a KissMeQuick without stash tabs compete with the paying KissMeQuick? He can't.

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CAPSLOCK_ON a écrit :

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

it's called football not soccer >:(

actually, in delve and synthesis league more tabs does in fact = more money since you can just fill up dump tabs and the money will come to you while you play the game collecting more items for dump tabs and earning more money. there's also essence/div cards/currency/map tabs that can save whole tabs worth of space meaning you got more room to place items for sell.

not p2w btw

While the quote is clearly in jest,

Just because you dump stuff in tabs doesn't mean its guaranteed income, something I learned over the course of several leagues. Part of it was simply hoarding things for personal use that I'd probably never use anyway. The other part was taking the time to learn the current metas and what was actually worth selling.

The biggest fallacy is the perception that more space is guaranteed to bring buttloads more simply because there's more space. The reality is that plenty of people get frustrated with trade, whether it be people not responding or players being in the middle of something and the trade just isn't worth interrupting whatever they're doing.

More than a few of my old remove-only tabs are filled with absolutely nothing worth keeping, but I specifically keep a few of those around to remind me of just how fearful I was of missing out on a potential sale because I found something someone could possibly use and completely oblivious to the fact that too often there's a psychological effect making me want to hold onto that item, not actual perceived value.

But again going back to the specialty tabs, that's where I feel the debate should have truly started. It's one thing to have specialty tabs for a few niche item types fine. But when the push to take up more space to underhandedly encourage additional stash purchases, that's where I would begin to question whether or not GGG is stepping over that line of predatory practice.

With resonators and fossils, they're stuck between a rock and a hardplace. Make a special tab, and they get flack for creating a space sink (like time sink) just to increase tab sales. Choose not to make a specialized tab and then they take the heat for intentionally burning up more space to encourage tab sales.