A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

For example I think its laughable that a single player game could be P2W

Ah, so if people could buy exalts, skillpoints, movementspeed, levels in SSF that would be totally fine and not pay to win?

Logic.exe has stopped working.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

Point is "winning"...

That's not a valid point and is still a straw man at best.

$$$ -> advantages = p2w.

it seems we're reaching wall points and this thread will soon be over but I can't thank some of you enough for all of this..
some of you can't even see the diference between lazyness and actually earning content.

edit: at this point I think it's just trolling, acting naive on purpose and not really admiting it.. nobody is this naive..

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

For example I think its laughable that a single player game could be P2W

Ah, so if people could buy exalts, skillpoints, movementspeed, levels in SSF that would be totally fine and not pay to win?

Logic.exe has stopped working.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

Point is "winning"...

That's not a valid point and is still a straw man at best.

$$$ -> advantages = p2w.

Again I dont want to beat a dead horse, but advantages over who?! Yourself? The AI? The Game engine?

Its absurd.

If you are in SSF league and buy skill points in your example (which is a dumb hypothetical anyway) who exactly do you have an advantage over and how? Other solo players you never interact with? Mindblowing.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

If you are in SSF league and buy skill points in your example (which is a dumb hypothetical anyway) who exactly do you have an advantage over and how? Other solo players you never interact with? Mindblowing.

Not that it matters but you answered it yourself. It's not like you are the only person on the planet that plays. If that was the case, you would only be half wrong. The fact that you have to argue about buying extra skill points and such could not be p2w in SSF is amazing. What's next? Not banning cheaters if they keep the cheating on the PvE servers? That would be totally logical in your opinion.

Again, $$$ -> advantages = p2w.

As mentioned earlier, GGG even agrees with this when it comes to private leagues but not when it comes to stash tabs. I wonder what bizarre defensive argument the the white knights have on that issue.

Looking forward to cringe and amusing arguments.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

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CAPSLOCK_ON a écrit :

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

Whole thread is just ignorant whining IMO.

whole thread is ignorant whiteknights who refuse to understand that P2W refers to paid advantage which tabs offer.

You do realize that's just an opinion (both ways)

It's the inherent problem with P2W in a PvE environment. Not everyone agrees what that means.

For example I think its laughable that a single player game could be P2W, but some insist it can. How, I have no fucking idea.

Point is "winning" can take many forms in PvE, and it's a broad brush to paint. Others think that ANY real money purchases that impacts gameplay is P2W (which by definition is everything)

In the end it's barely worth debate, becuase minds are not going to be changed.

Nowadays, this is slowly becoming the case. The real question is, does it bother you? Me? No. But I have noticed it seems to bother people who dont want to be labeled in a negative light, and it bothers those who dont want to spend money, too.

But you are right. Most games nowadays release and generally hide various things behind paywalls to increase profits. It has became more and more acceptable over time. Some of the stuff that game companies do nowadays would not be anywhere near acceptable years ago. Times have changed, and this is just the gaming climate we live in now.

I do think more and more games have reached "P2W" status. I will say this. It doesnt bother me with F2p games. They have to monetize somehow. When it bothers me, is when you spend 60 bucks on a game and then have the same kind of microtransactions a F2p would have. Now that gaming practice, pisses me off. But a F2p game monetizing their game doesn't. You can choose to deal with it, partake in it, or just dont play it. I like PoE, I really dont care if stash pages are a form of P2W. Just by typical definition, they are an advantage/QoL/gameplay function hidden behind a paywall.

You know Whale, you keep accusing people of white-knighting for Grinding Gear because they're arguing the definition of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO in a thread entitled "A Broad P2W Definition..."

What, may I ask, is the purpose of this thread, if not to determine what counts as a fair definition of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO?

Now, I'll admit - DarthSki is forgetting that the SSF ladders exist and that there's maybe seven people in Path of Exile (three of which are in the GGG offices) who care about the ladders, and as such a reasonably level playing field still behooves the mode.

On the other hand, the other side of the argument being presented in this thread - namely, the "everything it's possible to pay for with the exception of cosmetics is gameplay advantage, and thus PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO, and thus everyone who's ever bought a stash tab is a cheater and should be banned" - is ludicrous on so many levels I can't even describe them all in one day.

Let me ask you - what is acceptable for a game company to sell in an MTX store, given that players like you are openly proud of Never Wasting Money On Cosmetics, and that everything but cosmetics is apparently cheating?

I have played with and without tabs.


PoE is p2w.



For whitekngights here something from wiki.

"Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. Market research indicates that pay-to-win mechanics are considered much more acceptable by players in China than in Western countries, possibly because Chinese players are more habituated to recurring costs associated with gaming, such as gaming café fees.[36]

A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is for payments to only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[37] For example, games—such as Dota 2 and StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty—only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "free-to-play player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game. Others suggest finding a balance between a game that encourages players to pay for extra content that enhances the game without making the free version feel limited by comparison.[38] This theory is that players who do not pay for items would still increase awareness of it through word of mouth marketing, which ultimately benefits the game indirectly.

In response to concerns about players using payments to gain an advantage in the game, titles such as World of Tanks have explicitly committed to not giving paying players any advantages over their non-paying peers, while allowing the users buying the "gold" or "premium" ammo and expendables without paying the real money. However, features affecting gameplay and win rate, such as purchasing a 100% crew training level, a premium account, premium vehicles, and converting experience points to free experience points, remain available for the paying customers only.[39][40]"

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1453R a écrit :

You know Whale, you keep accusing people of white-knighting for Grinding Gear because they're arguing the definition of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO in a thread entitled "A Broad P2W Definition..."

What, may I ask, is the purpose of this thread, if not to determine what counts as a fair definition of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO?

Now, I'll admit - DarthSki is forgetting that the SSF ladders exist and that there's maybe seven people in Path of Exile (three of which are in the GGG offices) who care about the ladders, and as such a reasonably level playing field still behooves the mode.

On the other hand, the other side of the argument being presented in this thread - namely, the "everything it's possible to pay for with the exception of cosmetics is gameplay advantage, and thus PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO, and thus everyone who's ever bought a stash tab is a cheater and should be banned" - is ludicrous on so many levels I can't even describe them all in one day.

Let me ask you - what is acceptable for a game company to sell in an MTX store, given that players like you are openly proud of Never Wasting Money On Cosmetics, and that everything but cosmetics is apparently cheating?

You can't be called a cheater in a game with P2W elements. Its part of the game. If people cannot handle P2W elements, then play games without them. You arent a cheater for partaking in what a game has to offer, be it a cash shop or otherwise.

Is that what this is about? I stated that a few posts back and I knew thats people's sticking points on this topic. They dont want to be viewed in a negative light. You arent a cheater for buying damn stash pages, even if they are by definition P2W. Its part of the game. IF GGG sold items, and you bought items, again, you arent a cheater.

Almost all F2p games have p2w elements. Some worse than others. Stash pages are pretty far down the list for me, but they are still in that category. If you play F2p games, you are going to deal with cash shops and monetization practices. Its up to the player if they can deal with the ones a game uses. Some might just flatout sell items. Some may just sell convenience/inventory space/game time/whatever. You aren't a cheater for buying the stuff the game has to offer.

I think what GGG does is perfectly acceptable in the realm of F2p games nowadays. I'm far more lenient on what F2p games do to make their money than I am 60 dollar titles who employ the same practices.

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LowBudget780 a écrit :

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Rexeos a écrit :

I have played with and without tabs.


PoE is p2w.

Paid premium stash tabs will definitely give you an in-game advantage over someone using forum posts and that clunky procurement app to do trades. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

Paid stash tab = listing & removing item in 5 seconds
No P2W tab = listing & removing item in 1 minute + even more spam after selling

I still don't understand how anyone can defend stash tabs not being P2W.
I guess the kids here have never even tried posting items on the forum. It's unbearable.

Any definition which you can find labels "pay to win" as something which gives you an advantage over non-paying users. For each trade, you are able to run an extra map over someone who doesn't pay.

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

If you are in SSF league and buy skill points in your example (which is a dumb hypothetical anyway) who exactly do you have an advantage over and how? Other solo players you never interact with? Mindblowing.

Not that it matters but you answered it yourself. It's not like you are the only person on the planet that plays. If that was the case, you would only be half wrong. The fact that you have to argue about buying extra skill points and such could not be p2w in SSF is amazing. What's next? Not banning cheaters if they keep the cheating on the PvE servers? That would be totally logical in your opinion.

Again, $$$ -> advantages = p2w.

As mentioned earlier, GGG even agrees with this when it comes to private leagues but not when it comes to stash tabs. I wonder what bizarre defensive argument the the white knights have on that issue.

Looking forward to cringe and amusing arguments.

Well I suppose we will have to agree to disagree here.

I dont see how p2W in solo or single player exists, except to impact yourself, which again how can anyone else win or experience advantage, in that setting?

You can have your opinion. I just think its illogical. I mean by that measure Skyrim (or any other game) mods are p2w. It's just an awful measure, when there are real predatory, unethically monetized games out there. I'm not dying on the hill for single player games. If it's not obvious why that logic is flawed, you will never see it.

It's not worth the energy to debate further. We won't have common ground on this.