A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

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Phrazz a écrit :

You even change the abbreviation from "win" to "advantage" to fit YOUR arguments.

There's the straw. Who says that terms are meant to be taken literally? Din't you know that p2w has a meaning other than the words themselves?

Would you call Chris a blatant lier for claiming that path of exile is designed to be played forever when the sun would clearly die before that? <- This is your straw argument that belongs in the kindergarten. Lets not be complete morons.

Don't forget that "Paying for in game advantage" is the mainstream definition and these guys are the ones trying to subjectively change it.

;)

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1453R a écrit :

My argument boils down to the fact that I understand how these games work just a bit better than the average forum idiot, and that paying for time is not paying to win in a game where time is not a commodity of victory.'Winning', in Path of Exile, refers to being able to do endgame content and high-end bosses. Nothing in their cash shop assists with this no matter how much people want to twist premium tabs into somehow being a Sin Against All Modern Man and how the entirety of the Grinding Gear team and their entire families should be arrested and imprisoned until the end of time because they dared to sell something people might want to buy.

So lets sum this up:

- You claim to know how this game works better than most.
- Paying for time is not paying to win, supposedly.
- "Winning" in poe is the ability to do endgame content.
- Nothing in the MTX shop benefits you in endgame content in any way.
- Everyone who argues that stash tabs are P2W supposedly also opposes them for that reason.

What a total crock of shit.

1) You clearly don't.
2) Paying for time is, and always will be, one of the core forms of P2W. In fact it's doubly hilarious that you try to claim this when the OP of this thread is literally talking about a bill where businesses are using predatory practices to try and force people to spend money to "skip ahead in time."
3) Fair enough, this one makes sense.
4) So the time gained from trading 10x easier doesn't benefit you in working towards endgame content? The ability to pick up all currency and not have half of your stash dedicated to it doesn't benefit you in working towards endgame content? The ability to store league specific crafting tools (eg fractures) doesn't benefit you in working towards endgame content? People with premium stashes have more time to play the game, more space to store currency, and more ability to interact with league mechanics fully. I could go on and on with this one, but i'm not here to write an essay.
5) And this is the most egregious of all of the assumptions here. The reason WHY this topic is so controversial is because both sides are half right.

Is it P2W? Yes!
Do GGG have every right to sell them? Yes!

To the people that put hundreds of hours into the game then whine about spending a few bucks on tabs, well just be grateful that you got your free trial for so long. Of all the types of P2W, GGG have managed to come up with a type which is generally acceptable, and also only needs to be purchased once. One currency tab and one premium tab upgrade and you are all set to play the game properly forever.

You also get the first blood pack with gives you yet another tab for free along with a nice weapon effect.

Can't afford it?

Put aside $1 each day for a month, then you will be able to afford it. Easy.

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

Who says that terms are meant to be taken literally? Din't you know that p2w has a meaning other than the words themselves?

Congratulations; my point. Which means it all comes down to your PERSONAL interpretation. YOUR definition. YOUR interpretation of "win". That's what this whole debate is based on.

"It's not to be taken literally. It's open for interpretation. But if you interpret it different than I do, you have a peanut sized brain".

You Sir, seem like a really cool dude. A fine looking high horse.

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Phrazz a écrit :

Congratulations; my point. Which means it all comes down to your PERSONAL interpretation.

Just lol. You are the one trying to "re-interpret" something just as Albinosaurus said. You are putting up a straw because you want to pretend so hard that stash tabs are not p2w.

Even if you are right (which you are clearly not), it would mean that all sort of p2w things would be okay since there is no winning condition i.e. it would be okay to sell exalts, perfect gear, xp, levels, damage buffs, hardcore revival etc while still claiming that the game is totally not p2w. This doesn't help your argument one bit, yet you desperately rely on it as the only branch that's strong enough to somehow support your claim. Ridiculous.

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Phrazz a écrit :

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

Who says that terms are meant to be taken literally? Din't you know that p2w has a meaning other than the words themselves?

Congratulations; my point. Which means it all comes down to your PERSONAL interpretation. YOUR definition. YOUR interpretation of "win". That's what this whole debate is based on.

"It's not to be taken literally. It's open for interpretation. But if you interpret it different than I do, you have a peanut sized brain".

You Sir, seem like a really cool dude. A fine looking high horse.

Now you see why this thread is the way it is. Take out the insults and belittling and it might be a quarter of what it is now.

I went into it knowing full well the folks that claim anything not purely cosmetic is pay to win are generally unable or unwilling to see how that term even came to pass.

It's not a debate so much as a select number basically feeling that not even full access to a game is enough, that they DESERVE more storage space just for being a part of the community.

If anything it's a reflection of how younger gamers have changed, but to be fair they've probably never seen shareware and freeware to them is what they expect just about everything to be. They also don't know what it was like to have to wait over an hour to download a 3 minute mp3.

Instead of having to go to the bookstore to look at magazines for a solution to a game they just google it and have the answer in moments. Too much just taken for granted now.

If anything they remind me literally of this:

https://www.phillyvoice.com/philadelphia-parents-meal-train-fishtown-baby-campaign/

Like the folks who rage in League of Legends, it's never their fault they do poorly, it's because of their teammates no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. People paying for skins (unseen advantage) or boosts to level faster, yet it's on smurf accounts where you clearly see just how much the higher tier players outclass the over-inflated egos.

hahahahahaha now it went from "lol not pay to win lol" to "their egos too big, they are millenials, they dont deserve anything"

you can't make this shit up..

I guess human stupidity can reach even beyond points these days.. everything to deny the painful truth.

paying for qol is for lazy people that doesnt want to earn the content in any right way, congratulations you paid your way to be more effective to the game.. I'm gonna go ahead and keep playing hardmode while at the same time not supporting such scummy moves like paying for a quality of life change.

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Now you see why this thread is the way it is. Take out the insults and belittling and it might be a quarter of what it is now.

I went into it knowing full well the folks that claim anything not purely cosmetic is pay to win are generally unable or unwilling to see how that term even came to pass.

It's not a debate so much as a select number basically feeling that not even full access to a game is enough, that they DESERVE more storage space just for being a part of the community.

If anything it's a reflection of how younger gamers have changed, but to be fair they've probably never seen shareware and freeware to them is what they expect just about everything to be. They also don't know what it was like to have to wait over an hour to download a 3 minute mp3.

Instead of having to go to the bookstore to look at magazines for a solution to a game they just google it and have the answer in moments. Too much just taken for granted now.

If anything they remind me literally of this:

snip

Like the folks who rage in League of Legends, it's never their fault they do poorly, it's because of their teammates no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. People paying for skins (unseen advantage) or boosts to level faster, yet it's on smurf accounts where you clearly see just how much the higher tier players outclass the over-inflated egos.

Snipped your link out before responding. As a gamer who has played from the original NES era to now, stash tabs are a form of p2w, they save you time, they make the game far more convenient, and they allow you to make less choices about picking up loot. In a loot based game, the more loot you can store and save, the easier it gets, and in this one particularly the more currency you can make either through chaos recipe or easier selling, and you can even hold more currency because of the currency tab. Yes GGG should be paid for their game (lord knows I've spent about 150 bucks on tabs and mtxs) but that doesn't change the fact that buying tabs makes the game easier and therefore is a type of pay to win.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

Having more space isn't always an advantage

had to stop reading there. you can't be serious if you think having more stash space isn't an advantage at all times lmao.

Delve was the league i've played the most and was also the league i made the most currency. i had a lot of the multiple currency types and so many chaos that i had to trade them for exalts to save space. i also couldn't hoard as many fossils because of stash space being so limited, but i guess i should be thankful that i didn't have 20 tabs to stop me from hoarding "unnecessary" items right?

this is some extreme whiteknighting

The more I read this thread, the more I realize the people fighting against the accepted definition of P2W are people who dont want to be labeled p2W players.

Thats really what it boils down to. I see it all the time in my mobile games. F2p is like some kind of badge of honor. "I'm F2p btw!" "F2p btw!" etc.

What I gather, is these people spent money, but they dont like the moniker P2W. I mean they know deep down paying for advantages not offered in the base game, is P2W. Buying convenience and QoL is by far the most common type of P2W across all F2p games, mobile included.

I've already said I've spent a solid 100-150 bucks on this game. I own every stash page, I have every stash page premium, I have more than I can even use most of the time. I regret buying most of them. I dont care that its P2W. I'd buy the next predatory one they release when they release yet another league widget that needs its on special league widget page. I'll buy that one, too.

But I can be honest with myself and realize this is a form of P2W. It just is. ITs just like speeding up my warframe builds from 3 days to instant, buying more warframe slots, buying more energy in summoners war, etc. It convenience, quality of life, and things that do not come with the base game everyone else is playing. ITs behind a pay wall. Hiding game features behind a pay wall is P2W by definition, lol. I dont understand why this is even being argued.

But, this forum does have the most white knights I have ever seen, which is why I like posting here even when I'm not playing the game. They make me laugh. GGG could shit in a bucket and mail it to them and tell them its PoE memorabilia, and they would put it on their mantle with a plaque, and congratulate GGG for sending them a bucket of shit.

OP never heard of Acquisition.

Or Alia who wins race to 100 nearly every league with 4-5 tabs. (someone gifted him a map tab recently but for years he only had 4)

You dont "need" to buy any tabs to "win" or Trade. It just make it easier is all.

In many cases you get lazy with so many tabs and save too much bullshit. Tabs actually my be detrimental to efficient play. I can certainly make an argument for this view based on how much crap I have in over 100 tabs and I've never gotten to 100 ever like Alia does in 4-5 days every league.