A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

This makes no sense.

Yes it does. It's just hard for white knights to comprehend arguments that goes against GGG.

That's all it really is. I honestly think they know better but want to troll out of boredom since this league doesn't have anything to offer them. Bored of game? Play the forums. Lel.

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

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WhaleBusiness a écrit :

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

This makes no sense.

Yes it does. It's just hard for white knights to comprehend arguments that goes against GGG.

That's all it really is. I honestly think they know better but want to troll out of boredom since this league doesn't have anything to offer them. Bored of game? Play the forums. Lel.

We are trolling?

Single player P2W. Lol gtfo. What an embarrassment.

Well I suppose they made velcro shoes with some people in mind.

This is fucking stupid.

I disagree. You can try to make the argument that 'ya but what if it's broad enough', but that doesn't make stash tabs equal to progression. And you can't twist progression to be what you want IE; collecting items. Because progression is very clearly beating the campaign, and then working your way up to and beating the final bosses. Stash tabs don't help with that.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

We are trolling?

Single player P2W. Lol gtfo. What an embarrassment.

Well I suppose they made velcro shoes with some people in mind.

game isn't single player if you're playing in a trade league and premium stash tabs offer an undeniable advantage for making more currency. and even if you're ssf, being able to store more items for future use is also a big advantage.

just face it, stash tabs are paid advantage, paid advantage is p2w.

They'd rather make up arbitrary and stupid "definitions" of p2w, and bicker about those, instead just using the one everyone already knows. It might be more productive to argue about what forms of p2w are acceptable since some clearly are while others not.

"this is stupid"

"lol it's not pay to win lol"

being in denial wont change the fact that you would rather pay for quality of life changes than earning them.

but sure you're entitled to your own fairy world regardless.. I don't bother with echo chambers.

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DarthSki44 a écrit :

Single player P2W. Lol gtfo. What an embarrassment.

Do you think that a single player game is developed explicitly for you and for you only? No. You still play the same game as other players. Exchanging the content of your wallet for in game benefits would still obviously be considered pay to win.

Paying for advantage in competitive play is obviously more severe but that doesn't mean that p2w literally cannot exist in single player mode.

If you disagree, you would also be disagreeing with GGG who claims they have to be "careful" with private leagues so that you don't get any advantages over regular players. Oddly this argument doesn't seem to apply for their stash tabs for some reason =)

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Bleu42 a écrit :

I disagree. You can try to make the argument that 'ya but what if it's broad enough', but that doesn't make stash tabs equal to progression. And you can't twist progression to be what you want IE; collecting items. Because progression is very clearly beating the campaign, and then working your way up to and beating the final bosses. Stash tabs don't help with that.

Beating the campaign is hardly the goal of poe. Poe is designed to be played forever. It has an "end game" for a reason. Poe is all about playing interesting builds and acquiring wealth. Stash tabs clearly aids you with that. The fact that stash tabs allows you to sell items faster is enough alone to disprove your argument.

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CAPSLOCK_ON a écrit :

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

Exactly. Nobody says cosmetics affect gameplay--because they don't. They don't increase drop rates, stash space, damage output, player durability, etc. He basically just committed the same logical fallacy, but in a different form, that Darthski44 did.

It's clear that those of you wanting to argue don't know what its like to be truly plagued by botting like that of D2. That's not to say the problem doesn't exist in PoE today, it's just that you guys are so focused on your own accounts you aren't even considering how free accounts with premium trade tabs would likely devastate the economy allowing botters to mule and trade at little to no cost and risk to themselves.

But hell, even the concept of muling is foreign to too many of you.

see, you know premium stash tabs offer a very big advantage over those who don't have them and yet claim they aren't P2W/paid advantage w/e you wanna call it.

Although i do understand that bots having access to that advantage for free would indeed allow them to fuck the economy even more than they already do

Like I said, everyone who's argued its pay to win doesn't understand the orgins of PoE, namely D2. It's been over 10 years, still haven't forgotten the pain of creating multiple accounts and characters just to store stuff, and "perming" games in order to transfer the items without relying on another party but still at risk of losing said items to dc or server crash.

Having more space isn't always an advantage, and my standard stash for every league since abyss is just an example. More space meant I held on to way too much that won't sell or wasn't worth selling. I can only run my standard briefly because sorting that stash gives me a sense of dread.

Having more space is advantageous to a point, but it doesn't magically make me in-game wealthy or find items for me to sell.

Let's go back to D2 for a moment, where no one had the ability to purchase additional storage space, and the space allotted was less than one poe stash page. I was running solo ubers, had my runeword gear, even had enough wealth to lose interest in pve and actually pvp. I still didn't come close to the wealthiest folk in game by a long shot.

However, I also didn't mind that because acquiring virtual wealth only goes so far. In PoE now, I'm far from in-game wealthy, but unlike most of the folks arguing that stash tabs are P2W, I've actually beaten all the bosses, which just happened to be my primary goal.

Did the stash tabs help, yes and no - having more space allowed me to keep more stuff, but most of it wasn't worth keeping, let alone picking up in the first place. The extra space meant I took far longer to become more stringent in my looting, and thus cost me way too much time micromanaging.

There are people far wealthier than I, and they did it with fewer purchased tabs or none at all.

Pay 2 Win generally references an unethical practice of creating an environment where its players have to constantly reinvest real world money into goods and services that go well beyond a standard subscription fee.

If PoE is that unethical, why would you play the game or bother posting on the forums at all?

The reality is not a single level or area is restricted to accounts that have never spent a dime. Most F2P models restrict content/access on varying levels.

Are tabs offered for an additional fee?
Yes.

Are tabs more than cosmetic?
Yes.

Do they guarantee income or improved drop rates?
NO.

2/3s of my Synthesis stash tabs are so full of winning that they're empty and unused. I've already lost track of the remove tabs I have in standard and just the thought of having to sort through them is enough to ruin my mood to play at all.

Assuming people didn't play D2 doesn't change the fact that you're paying for a gameplay feature that you wouldn't have access to otherwise: P2W.