Chaos recipe nerf only fixed a symptom

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Moosifer a écrit :

Posted this else where. I think it applies to this topic.

<some snippage>

1) The problem is with alch and chaos recipes both being nerfed there's not much in the way of passive wealth generation for map runners.

2) A pure farmer should make more than someone trying to lvl but right now the gap is massive.

3)The only problem I see with all of this is summoners who can MF the highest lvl maps stacking MF completely and being fairly glass cannon. While I don't have a way to make maps hell for them like some builds, having no minion maps, high chaos degen values, curses effect minions or whatever else you can think of.

These are all IMO - I'm sure other players feel differently

1)Map running shouldn't be about wealth generation, it should be about leveling (and getting up past 80 should be difficult)and finding those one or two really great items. People expect to get high level maps easily, and they expect to get a lot of nice drops. I disagree with the philosophy that the risk+time invested to reward ratio should remain constant. It should be a diminishing return curve, so that getting a level 77 maps is a big deal and not a case where "I ran 12 level 75 maps and didn't get a single lvl 77 map". One things they could do is create some desirable new items with a drop class that isn't affected by party size or item rarity, only by boss/area difficulty.

2) I think a character leveling should generate more nice items and currency than a player farming - so long as the character is staying within or slightly above their level range and is progressing through the game. I think this is one of the things GGG has done absolutely right.

3)If you had such maps with "No minions by players" to be fair to all, you would need maps with "No cold damage by players" and "No projectile damage by players" etc.

These are all just my opinion, worth no more than your average kicked to the curb exile.

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Xendran a écrit :

The "Big Three" offenders of this are GCPs (who actually uses gcps, let alone in high enough numbers to actually cause them to not flood the market)

I'm not sure the market is flooded with GCPs, it just seems they are almost always just kept for trading as you first mention.

Cap GCP best drops to 18% and allow them to go up to 25%, then add a random element to GCP usage (from 0-7% GCP can improve a gem 1-5%, from 8-13% it can improve a gem from 1-3%) and from 13-16 it can improve a gem 1-2%, from 17-19 it can improve a gem 1%, and past 20 it has a random (1/3) chance to either improve the gem 1%, do nothing, or reduce the gem by 1%). So you could have a 20% gem turn into a 19, then 20, then 20, then 21 then 21, then 22 then 20, etc.

My math might be fuzzy, but people bound and determined to have a 25% gem would need around 400 gcps to get there on average.

Yeah, its more ruthless RNG, but then people don't really *need* a 25% gem, they just want it.

Maps are just content; yes, GGG itemised the end-game content, but don't be fooled - it is still just content, not even new or original content, just high-level rehashes of already explored, already beaten stuff.

So don't treat it like some epic piece of gear (that should indeed be rare), please.

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DalaiLama a écrit :

I'm not sure the market is flooded with GCPs, it just seems they are almost always just kept for trading as you first mention.

Cap GCP best drops to 18% and allow them to go up to 25%, then add a random element to GCP usage (from 0-7% GCP can improve a gem 1-5%, from 8-13% it can improve a gem from 1-3%) and from 13-16 it can improve a gem 1-2%, from 17-19 it can improve a gem 1%, and past 20 it has a random (1/3) chance to either improve the gem 1%, do nothing, or reduce the gem by 1%). So you could have a 20% gem turn into a 19, then 20, then 20, then 21 then 21, then 22 then 20, etc.

My math might be fuzzy, but people bound and determined to have a 25% gem would need around 400 gcps to get there on average.

Yeah, its more ruthless RNG, but then people don't really *need* a 25% gem, they just want it.

Actually, i REALLY like this idea, and i'd say apply it to armors and weapons too, to give more of a use to scraps and whetstones.

First of all, I absolutely agree with what's been said about IR/IQ. It's a joke of a mod that should not be in ARPGs. It doesn't reward player skill. It doesn't even reward dedication towards your craft. It doesn't reward playing good builds. It just rewards pointless and robotic grinding on builds that can clear areas way too easy for them while sacrificing other mods. Dumb and pointless and it should be taken out immediately.

Secondly, I also completely agree with maps being terrible right now. Basically you need to spend a significant amount of currency (if you're solo, you basically need multiple hours of grinding just to run one map) and you more often than not get no return both in terms of map drops or currency/item drops within those maps. The drop rates right now are too stratified and too random. If you're one of those lucky few people that happen into exalteds, high end unique, or mirror drop, congrats you have plenty of currency to run maps. If you're like most people and grind the overworld for currency, good luck having enough to run decent maps.

The economy right now is absurd. You have >99% of items and drops being worth less than a GCP, and then you have the few items that actually make higher level maps viable going for 50-100 times that. Most of them only drop in maps. So either you get insanely lucky or you have to grind for a literal lifetime.

The game's endgame is designed like a catch-22. You have to spend tons of money trying to get access to the endgame that allows you to make the money (via high end drops) that you need to spend to access the endgame, all while you have to run said maps with gear that is likely insufficient for many of the mods on the maps because you haven't gotten said high end drops from the maps yet.

Basically, until this catch-22 is fixed, I suspect they'll continue to bleed higher level players.

Honestly, as much as i loved the map system at the start, the more and more i see it doing nothing but damaging the game. I'm going to make a feedback thread about how to fix this issue, while still keeping maps as a currency sink.

Having maps be a currency sink is fine. Having no way to build up the currency needed to sink into maps except by stacking IR/IQ and doing 7 hours of hopelessly easy areas is the problem. I understand ARPG's are inherently grindy, but there's a point where there's too much grind for too little benefit. The game is arbitrary enough as it is.

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UnderOmerta a écrit :

Having maps be a currency sink is fine. Having no way to build up the currency needed to sink into maps except by stacking IR/IQ and doing 7 hours of hopelessly easy areas is the problem. I understand ARPG's are inherently grindy, but there's a point where there's too much grind for too little benefit. The game is arbitrary enough as it is.

It's not even the amount of grind that bothers me, it's the fact that you're encouraged to grind things that are VERY easy, and that you get locked out of endgame.

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Xendran a écrit :

It's not even the amount of grind that bothers me, it's the fact that you're encouraged to grind things that are VERY easy, and that you get locked out of endgame.

It's a combination of factors. Having grinds is necessary to an extent, but having grinds just so you can do grinds is a bit much.

Leveling up a high level character is hard enough grind on its own. Grinding so you can grind to level up is excessive.

I also agree on the points in the thread about how crafting is not cost-effective. I've spent 10x+ the value of items just to get the links/colors/mods that I need. In the future I'm probably just going to horde currency and buy the items straight up. I don't think this is what the devs intended, and crafting should be fixed so this isn't the case anymore.

Re Chaos Recipe:

Should be all of merciless. 60 is a completely arbitrary cutoff- it still allows mindlessly easy areas like merc fellshrine but doesnt allow potentially deadly areas like merc coves, and ultimately just restricts player choice even more. We could use some recipes (however difficult to complete) for blesseds, exalts and all the other recipe-less orbs too.


Re Loot:

/players X just chokes build diversity, as there are few builds capable of efficiently soloing 60+ content with quadruple monster life.

Trying to code in bandaids like not counting idle or low level characters toward iiq increases always gets circumvented, its just a matter of time. Its also a waste of dev resources.

Doing nothing leaves us with running 5x idle alts as the best path to wealth. Poor for everyone who wants to just play the game and might strain the servers if it becomes too widespread.

I think the best solution is to increase base monster drops to 2.5x to 3x what they are now and remove the party iiq bonus. Removes all reason to run dummy accounts and makes soloing players more competitive with partying players as well, especially in long term events. Parties will see less overall loot but considering what a massive gameplay advantage partying is, i dont see this as a major issue, not to mention itd clamp the insane item spam in high iiq maps somewhat.


Re Maps:

Combo affixes (any affixes that combine to multiply difficulty instead of just adding to it, ie elem weakness + exposure or physical reflect + vulnerability) should give iir as well as iiq.

Maps should be less likely to drop lower level maps as their difficulty (iiq/iir) increases. This also passively punishes players for rolling only monster+size mods with no negative affixes.

Merciless catacombs and at least one side area in each of act 2 and act 1 should be level 64, so players looking for semi-reliable map drops arent forced to grind the exact same area over and over (lunaris 3). They would provide places to gear up along the way for players running gear intensive builds as well.

An alternate endgame area thats permanently available, similar to old MoC, should be (re)added. Base level of 65, so its lower than maps but higher than merciless content, with iir/iiq/alvl bonuses for continuing further into it (up to a certain cap so that it doesnt outshine maps). The map system lacks the smooth "jump in whenever and just play" feel that MoC and permanent, no entry barrier endgame areas in general grantin arpgs and this would shore up that lack.


Re Economy:

At some point the static effect items like gems, gcps etc are going to need some randomization, probably in the form of a tiny chance of minor affixes on dropped gems (ie, blue/yellow versions) and some kind of rng on gcps, whetstones etc. Otherwise itll reach the point where everyone beyond the newest newb is going to ignore these things as their marginal utility will eventually (especially in default) be close enough to zero to render them worthless. That or all of the above need to be usable in expensive crafting recipes. Implimenting both solutions would make the game even more interesting.

Best in slot uniques like lioneyes glare need to be nerfed and the mistake not repeated. A single unique of this sort can make an entire subgroup of rares obsolete in a rather short timeframe and have accordingly nasty effects on game longevity.

Edit: Forgot to pop diamond before sending my wall of text, prepare to get critical'd!