Auction house

To be honest, I don't really trade that much, unless I find good deals, but having an automated system will just break the game to some point in which bargaining will be made obsolete ( since the price would be fixed) , and yes I bring that into discussion because bargaining and soft bargaining skills can lead to a better market and more people gearing up, hence making the game more reliable to more people.

I need to take into consideration also the fact that people are sharing stuff that they just cannot sell or that they don't feel the need to sell ( having an ah would make the people just trow the item there and forget about it until it sells) , of course this is quite a strategy for monitization in this game as space is never sufficient. Again this needs to be pointed out because this helps some people gear up and enjoy the game with some cheap not so worthy items that for some are a build starter.

AH would need to be permanently maintained ( costs for the company).

AH would just sever the interaction between players, which is what keeps this game mostly alive .

Other mogul games like D2 , didn't need an AH and still made it through beeing enjoyable for a decade.

Now since I stated a couple of things that would be broken if an AH would be implemented let's look on what it will bring on the table .


1. It would be an incentive to stop playing and get out in the real world ( because AH would let you sell things while being offline ) . A really good thing but I guess that's against GGG mentality, and actually the funds for the game are being received, by investing a lot of time in the game and keeping you firm in your chair mapping or trading, which leads to the need of stash tabs, or est ethics to help you not get bored.

2. Ah would bring a certain authomatization and will exclude the use of 3rd party programs like Aquisition and Procurement.

3. AH would probably help players that don't have 8-10 hours per day to play to have a solid trading rate as long as the price is under the market so they could sell fast .


Having this analyzed I don't think an AH is needed. We actually have what we need with GGG's trading platform, Poe.Trade , forum shops ( were you can recieve an message to be read later on and sell later on).

I'd say it's just a question of time. It may take 3 months or 3 years, but it will happen eventually, by delaying it GGG is just prolonging players struggling.

AHs are a tendance in multiplayer games. As PoE grows, the number of players asking for it just increases, so they'll do it at some point.

As it is now, most players who are against an AH are price fixers or flippers, usually both. Because they would not be able to do price fixing in an Auction House. And the flipping would be much easier, which means that everyone could do it, which of course will cause to no one beeng actually able to do it.

These people say that the automatization of trading will kill the game. Like if they aren't already using various tools like macros and bots to make trading inhumanly fast. They just don't want everyone to have the same tools.

I'll just end saying that buying currency and maps in PoE is one of the worst experiences of trading i've seen in any multiplayer game. It's not reasonable taking minutes to buy a single map.

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M4gnific a écrit :

I'd say it's just a question of time. It may take 3 months or 3 years, but it will happen eventually, by delaying it GGG is just prolonging players struggling.

AHs are a tendance in multiplayer games. As PoE grows, the number of players asking for it just increases, so they'll do it at some point.

As it is now, most players who are against an AH are price fixers or flippers, usually both. Because they would not be able to do price fixing in an Auction House. And the flipping would be much easier, which means that everyone could do it, which of course will cause to no one beeng actually able to do it.

These people say that the automatization of trading will kill the game. Like if they aren't already using various tools like macros and bots to make trading inhumanly fast. They just don't want everyone to have the same tools.

I'll just end saying that buying currency and maps in PoE is one of the worst experiences of trading i've seen in any multiplayer game. It's not reasonable taking minutes to buy a single map.

Couldn't agree more

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M4gnific a écrit :

I'd say it's just a question of time. It may take 3 months or 3 years, but it will happen eventually, by delaying it GGG is just prolonging players struggling.

AHs are a tendance in multiplayer games. As PoE grows, the number of players asking for it just increases, so they'll do it at some point.

As it is now, most players who are against an AH are price fixers or flippers, usually both. Because they would not be able to do price fixing in an Auction House. And the flipping would be much easier, which means that everyone could do it, which of course will cause to no one beeng actually able to do it.

These people say that the automatization of trading will kill the game. Like if they aren't already using various tools like macros and bots to make trading inhumanly fast. They just don't want everyone to have the same tools.

I'll just end saying that buying currency and maps in PoE is one of the worst experiences of trading i've seen in any multiplayer game. It's not reasonable taking minutes to buy a single map.

Even if I don't like the idea of AH to POE, I have to agree with you. Buying maps in PoE is a pain.

But IMHO they won't add any AH, I have seen this complaining for many years and the answer was a manifesto about trading and currency.

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Phrazz a écrit :

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Chris a écrit :

Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.
People who are heavily engaged in trade perform fewer item upgrades to achieve their final build. They get there in fewer steps, because they can easily buy items that are close to what they need.
Easy trade means reducing drop rates

These are the main points for me.


For A LOT of people, an AH is something they think they want, but in reality it might hurt the game more than it gives. But one thing is clear; if you trade for everything now, viewing the game as "all about trade" already, then of course you would advocate for an AH. But you aren't the blueprint of a PoE player.

Then GGG should make gear increases more incremental, linear based on level.

Lets say a level 10 chest gives 10 hp, level 20 gives 20, etc.

Right now, trade is so annoying that there is no way you would trade to up for 10 hp. But, if trade were easy, you would upgrade every 10 levels.

That's more item upgrades, not less. The GGG argument makes no sense.


"But you aren't the blueprint of a PoE player."

Seeing as pretty much all build guides include what you should buy as an endgame gear set, and farming individual uniques outside of boss drops is a nonstarter, I call BS.

GGG is probably including players that play to level 10 then quit the game, which for all free to play games is the majority. You can twist statistics to say anything, but spend 10 minutes on the build guides here, or featured as build of the week, or on reddit, and probably 1/10 have crafting guides, while almost all have 'what to buy' guides.

Just no, maybe make ingame trading simpler, but AH is never going to work.

For years I was "lobbying" for some kind of AH because trading is painful most of the time. But, I have come around somewhat to understand that the easier the trade the benefits would flow to the "professional" traders.

And with the games evolution it is becoming less necessary to trade at all if you really don't want to - SSF is pretty viable right now compared to even a year ago.

Really maps are the only remaining item that is just BS to try to acquire but even that was mitigated somewhat by the Zana changes.

Anyway, the long and short is that I am no longer convinced about having an AH.

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warlick a écrit :

Just no, maybe make ingame trading simpler, but AH is never going to work.

WTF, thats exactly what an AH fixes

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SilverWF a écrit :

Stop hiding behind Chris words.

Excuse me?

He went out of his way to write a detailed explanation of how trade works, of why trade works the way it does, and of his thinking behind his choices. He's the lead dev. And I've yet to see one of these stupid threads about wanting an AH pop up that didn't retread all the tired arguments he already addressed, in detail.

How about you stop ignoring what he wrote?

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SilverWF a écrit :

1. He can speak for himself, without you.

What? You think he has the time avaible to pop into every one of these threads and debate with you personally? I'm not speaking for him, I'm pointing out that he already addressed these issues (in considerable detail), and linking to them.

As it happens, I agree with him, or I wouldn't bother.

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SilverWF a écrit :

2. There is NO single word about AH - just some magic words about "easy trade". And for me, having tons of different currencies instead of one, let's say, "gold", is enough to say, that trading here is not easy.

So you're going to hide behind semantics? What YOU think is "sufficiently difficult" is irrelevant, you're not PoE's lead designer. This is an ARPG, the speed at which progression occurs is a very carefully managed element of the game. Trading interaction is intended as a tertiary source for gearing. There are specific goals for the trading system beyond the actual trades themselves. The existing system meets those goals, regardless of what you think of it.

(Additionally, there are business model elements to consider as well. Many players are horrified that GGG has the gall to expect to actually make money on the game. That's a ridiculously naive view, GGG is a business, and as FTP models go, GGG's is one of the least predatory on the market).

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SilverWF a écrit :

3. They can implement it with lower number filters, than poe.trade or they own site tool (still have no idea - why they created a poor version of poe.trade?) has. And this would be much harder trade, than it is now.

The API system they use is integral to a number of features they use on their own site. Features I doubt they wish to disable, regardless of whether you personally use them or think they're important. Because the API system exists, GGG has certainly limitations as to how "difficult" they can make any given system that utilizes it. If they make it too clunky, then people will simply continue to use poe.trade (a 3rd party site GGG has little or no control over).

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SilverWF a écrit :

4. Offline AH would show seller name, so you WOULD still be able to contact him and debate price. But he can be offline or didn't know your lang - just like it is now.

Bull. As soon as there's a "Bid" and a "Buyout" button, 99% of the people wanting to trade will simply use those. Actual negotiation over prices will drop to a tiny fraction of what it is now.

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SilverWF a écrit :

5. Offline AH would remove that price fixers mess, like set valuable item for low price - to trick newbies - and do not sell it in real.

Again, you've misunderstood the underlying goals of the system. Those price fixers you hate, and the inefficiency of the existing system are part of the design. The system is supposed to work poorly for high volumes of trade. There are a variety of things that factor into that.

Further:

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Chris a écrit :

Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation
Another topic is automation. While we work hard to stamp out bots and abusive behaviour, it would be hard to completely eliminate the damage caused by a few trade bots with access to a fast trade system. If they have the ability to search out and buy items without having to talk to another player, then there would be some very large-scale economic consequences that would not be good for regular players.

Every AH system I've ever seen gets aggressively abused by bots.

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SilverWF a écrit :

7. Possibly, offline AH wouldn't remove public API for services, so everyone who likes connecting via WebSocket and be instantly notified about interesting items, still would be happy. Someone said something about automatization? Wake up - it already exist!

Yeah? So which is it, is there already sufficient automation (in which case, the existing system is just fine)? Or is there insufficient automation (in which case an AH is needed to make things "easier")? Pick one, either choice is fine (for the purpose of debate), but here's the thing, you can't have both because they're mutually exclusive.

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SilverWF a écrit :

8. If this API would be removed, then it would be even better: you will be forced to choose: browse AH OR play, not AND, like it is now. Set desired filters, turn on instant notify, start grinding. You hear "ding-dong", looking at 2nd screen, if not interesting item has been posted "nah, continue playing", if it is "woa, that's good" copypaste predetermined text, contact seller, fast buy and continue grinding.

Bingo. There we finally have it, that's you, admitting you want "easier" trading. Chris Wilson may not have used the actual words "auction house" (although he did refer to the Trade Market in the Chinese version of the game, which is in fact, a form of Auction House), but you yourself pointed out how much he went on about the evils of making acquisition of upgrades "easier". Yet here you are, waxing poetic about how much "easier" an AH would make your life.

Easier isn't the goal of the trading system. The system is designed to support small volumes of high value trades (one or two trades per character in most cases, perhaps a dozen at the outside). The system is specifically designed to fail, to become frustratingly obtuse when you attempt to use it for high volumes of low value trades.

The frustrations you experience with the trading system are intentional. Not any specific frustration mind you, but the degree of frustration in general. It frustrates you because it is supposed to so that you won't over use it.

Use the system as it is intended, and you're unlikely to find it frustrating.

Easiest solution that they are afraid of using, make a trade league with access to an AH. Make it an option you can select like SSF.

To those of you who say that you believe that the people who want an AH are in the minority, this is the clearest way to say one way or the other.