can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it)

oh, god. someone's trying to tell me how hard it is to obtain good BASES, let alone items.

and pretending it's somehow not power creep or making the game easier. while literally arguing that it's making it easier for shitty players to catch up.

poe 2019 - it's totally hard to get currency, amirite?

also, you're evading the whole point. like i already said, ONE implicit plus an enchant is already power creep. that BTFO your entire rant, alone. derp.

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the counterpart of a non elder/shaper item, usually offering less options to be powerful in comparison to them.

it's as if elder/shaper items can have an enchantment and an implicit, too, or something.

my god, man. so many words, so much fail.

edit: added colors because evasion.

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Kulze a écrit :

[...]

No, your point does not stand ... did you understand a word of what you quoted from the start ?
People in the drastic majority of cases go for ES or life on the helmet slot, + the resistance debuff for builds focusing on one element ( majority of building without a doubt ), apart from unique helmets of course.
Trying to say that bone helmet were not a good choice because the base is hybrid is ... really stupid, honestly.
That was really already insignificant compared to the easy power it was giving ( and straigth up BiS for skills given by items depending on the build too)

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Kulze a écrit :

Yes, but the already established line of progression was reverted, not new progression added, hence bad game-design compared to good one. You don't make existing things which have been done for a while - and been fun - different, you add new things attached to that to give a further reason to play on. Your reasoning is backwards.

Nothing was reverted, old content is getting invalidated at best.
Adding new progression element while making old ones obsolete is not good game design, and power creep is exactly doing this : making old game element obsolete, little by little.

There is no need to make all existing content different, but there is definitely not need to make it irrelevant, and power creep ultimately does just that.

There is nothing "backwards" here, like wtf.

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Kulze a écrit :

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Fruz a écrit :

Power creep is by definition something overdone.
The moment you diminish the importance of already implemented content, it's already overdone.

Your definition is wrong, nothing more to add to this comment.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/power_creep

It's a concept, not a descriptive term for something good or bad.

Literally from that link :

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The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.

Did you even read the content of the link you just threw in at all ???
FFS.

underpowered content is by definition unbalanced.

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Kulze a écrit :

A lot of game-mechanics in PoE are based on RNG. Yes, you can kill most bosses 99 out of 100 times without an issue if you're a very good player, at try 100 you'll be screwed though because the timing between the different attacks interacting is out of your personal ability to handle, the ability being foresight to know what's coming.

The best example here would be the combination the trap ring spawning while Haku charges up an attack which will hit the inside of the ring. This combination of attacks can't be avoided unless you have a teleporting movement spell, hence you're dead with a glass-cannon, no questions asked there.

No, you are dead with a glass canon.
Haku's slam does not take all the space in the circle, and his windup is pretty long.
This plus the fact that GGG is expecting people to log out if they need.

You really are purely talking out of your *** here, if you had significant experience with elder/uber elder, you would know that you can get 'sucked' by the elder while shaper is throwing balls your way or channeling a beam at your face ( and not everybody is a Jugg or wearing Kaom's root ).

The syndicate can be handle with a glass canon, only it does not just happen during a boss fight isolated from the rest of the game, but it can be handled with a glass canon.

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Fruz a écrit :

Nothing was reverted, old content is getting invalidated at best.
Adding new progression element while making old ones obsolete is not good game design, and power creep is exactly doing this : making old game element obsolete, little by little.

There is no need to make all existing content different, but there is definitely not need to make it irrelevant, and power creep ultimately does just that.

There is nothing "backwards" here, like wtf.

With backwards I mean: Changing existing content in the game, with an already established power-level, which is mandatory for the main-progression of the game made harder while offering no way to work around it. That simply makes the game harder for everyone, with every build and takes away the viability to even use some of them.

Also, your comment is sadly plain wrong there. Making game elements obsolete by the implementation of new ones - which usually any kind of expansion giving a lot of content does in any game - isn't 'bad game-design'. GGG does a marvelous job to keep every... single.. league content at least partially viable. We still run breaches, we still do prophecies, we still work with the tempest-league mechanics or talisman league mechanics. All of them are reworked along the lone to keep up with the newly implemented systems.
Just because mapping itself isn't the main focus for progression after a while doesn't mean it's useless. It still has its place. You get sulphite there, temple, beasts and so on. It's the thing every other mechanic relates around, the core of the play. Therefore... yes... it should be the easiest content available in comparison to mechanics building up on it, not the made - significantly - harder by side-mechanics forced into it.

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Fruz a écrit :

Did you even read the content of the link you just threw in at all ???
FFS.

underpowered content is by definition unbalanced.

Which also by definition makes a good game though. Or do you want to have every single skill to have the same feel to it? Monogamising everything so it just looks different? That's why many games failed along the line, I'm more then glad PoE doesn't have that issue.
Steady changes on the top skills while raising up others again feels fine. Sure, what I did last league might be useless next one (best example probably was SRS there), but on the other hand other skills suddenly coming back out of their hole. How long until the loved skill turns back to be good? Maybe a few years, who knows, GGG cycles the meta-skills clearly, as well as trying to at least keep every skill viable with the ability to reach end-game. That's something you won't find in many other long-standing complex games at all, most of their content becomes useless after short progression.

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Fruz a écrit :

No, you are dead with a glass canon.
Haku's slam does not take all the space in the circle, and his windup is pretty long.
This plus the fact that GGG is expecting people to log out if they need.

You really are purely talking out of your *** here, if you had significant experience with elder/uber elder, you would know that you can get 'sucked' by the elder while shaper is throwing balls your way or channeling a beam at your face ( and not everybody is a Jugg or wearing Kaom's root ).

The syndicate can be handle with a glass canon, only it does not just happen during a boss fight isolated from the rest of the game, but it can be handled with a glass canon.

Just because it happens more often at uber-elder - which is an unfair fight sometimes - doesn't mean it won't happen in maps. The chance for unfair combinations to happen is very high with the syndicate, far higher then anything else together.
Sure, it will only fill out 2/3 of the ring, at least if you don't have extra AOE range on the map.
Sure, you can log out to survive, we know that isn't a surefire way to survive either though, they don't 'expect' it though, it's a mechanic which simply has been left in to keep HC sane enough to do, especially because such stupid combinations can creep up on you without having any way to work around them.
Sure, you can play through SSF HC and reach 100 with a glass-cannon, which won't be seen as 'HC viable' anyway as it lacks several defensive mechanics. It's then you see that PoE isn't a 'fair' game mechanically, there are many situations where you won't get a chance to dodge attacks or combinations, hence why you need defensive layers after all.

Introducing more of those mechanics along the line makes it more RNG for many builds to survive though, less skill-based, and that's in general a bad direction.
Nobody likes to 'roll a dice on having fun', especially if that dice will be rolled every time after opening a new map. As many numbers as there might be on it, sooner or later it'll roll one where you're screwed.
So, reducing the numbers on that dice and making it more likely to role the 'you're screwed' one feels bad, it's out of your control.
RNG on item drops on the other hand feels exciting, there's the difference.

RNG providing punishment = bad
RNG providing treats = good

Simple as that.

delusion.

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Kulze a écrit :

With backwards I mean: Changing existing content in the game, with an already established power-level, which is mandatory for the main-progression of the game made harder while offering no way to work around it. That simply makes the game harder for everyone, with every build and takes away the viability to even use some of them.

Makes more sense, but ... have you just considered that we already had enough power ?
Because we did, and we still do of course.



I was obviously no speaking about just league addition, I was of course speaking of the whole game, and having carrots on rotten sticks does not make the content good..

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Kulze a écrit :

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Kulze a écrit :

underpowered content is by definition unbalanced.

Which also by definition makes a good game though

Alright, so since you just said that an unbalanced game is by definition a good game ....

I'm going to let you with that.
Pardon for skipping the rest of your post, I really don't have any interest anymore.

see guys, we had it all wrong. imbalance is apparently GOOD.

some guy said so.

i guess that means this game is now outstanding, because it's more imba than ever.

i'm still befuddled by some rando trying to tell me about item/crafting cost, as if it not only magically means it's not more powerful, but some sort of unobtainium.

meanwhile, i made numerous mirrors in every league i played...

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Kulze a écrit :

Which also by definition makes a good game though. Or do you want to have every single skill to have the same feel to it? Monogamising everything so it just looks different?

Are you so inept to make a claim, that good balance can be reached only via homogenization, like in Warcraft 2? Look at Warcraft 3, for example. All 4 playable races have unique units, buildings, heroes and stategies to achieve victory. And there is no "superior race" among them.

So HOW dare you claim, that we cant have mechanically DIFFERENT, yet still BALANCED skills? First can have higher AoE, second - higher range, third - higher damage, and so forth. Anyone with decent math knowledge is able to make certain adjustments, to balance all them. It isnt rocket science! That's why player so easily find out OP skills/mechanics every league and abuse them.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

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Kulze a écrit :

Which also by definition makes a good game though. Or do you want to have every single skill to have the same feel to it? Monogamising everything so it just looks different?

Are you so inept to make a claim, that good balance can be reached only via homogenization, like in Warcraft 2? Look at Warcraft 3, for example. All 4 playable races have unique units, buildings, heroes and stategies to achieve victory. And there is no "superior race" among them.

So HOW dare you claim, that we cant have mechanically DIFFERENT, yet still BALANCED skills? First can have higher AoE, second - higher range, third - higher damage, and so forth. Anyone with decent math knowledge is able to make certain adjustments, to balance all them. It isnt rocket science! That's why player so easily find out OP skills/mechanics every league and abuse them.

Yes, hence why it's unbalanced. Is it bad though? I mean... sure, having obscenely overpowered builds isn't good, having obscenely underpowered ones is neither. But having a different in strength which changes during every league because of changes/additions to the game is common. You won't ever achieve a 'perfectly balanced' game. As long as it's kept in a specific range it's fine, gives you a good way of thinking about choosing a build along the line each time as well.

Also, you're right, WC 3 doesn't have the same feeling as WC 2, though also... WC 3 has how many different units which need to be balanced? 150? That's not even the range we start to talk about different skills in PoE. It's basically in another dimension to balance it like an RTS.
You could sit in front of the screen and math out combinations and options while taking into consideration every possible build and play-style... and you wouldn't be finished in the next 5 years to start balancing it properly, that's the issue with games as complex as this one has grown over the years.

RTS balance is childs play compared to an ARPG one as PoE, even most other RPG games are childs play in complexity.

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Fruz a écrit :

Makes more sense, but ... have you just considered that we already had enough power ?
Because we did, and we still do of course.

I was obviously no speaking about just league addition, I was of course speaking of the whole game, and having carrots on rotten sticks does not make the content good..

Yes, I have to agree, at the current state we got enough power, more then enough. Hence why 4.0.0 is fairly dire to implement. Games-as-service (as PoE is) start dieing as soon as nothing new gets implemented for extended durations, that's sadly just how people work, always demanding new stuff despite having more then enough to sustain them for years without building up a single perfect character. I would also be glad if the power-creep in the range we have it now stops, but that's also the part about 'is power-creep good or bad?', that's one of the major points actually, without it player retention would be worse.

And yes, the content won't get better either, but providing no new content at all wouldn't help GGG as well, it's a conundrum, and one which has to be considered.

Sure, we can all say 'It's bad as is' and offer solutions without even thinking what it would do to player retention along the line, or how it would affect other people besides oneself. There's tons of those posts out, tons of those threads out, and tons of discussion - which prove irrelevant in the long run - just pickering about the 'But I am right' point as we seem to do here - besides a few interesting side-notes.

We could also just mock other peoples post, being so butt-hurt that we can't even think about anything else then what we personally see in the words written of the other person, because sure... that's how communication works, there's only one singular line of thought possible, right? (Beware of sarcasm). Or we could lean back and use our brain to think where peoples thoughts might be coming from.
Nearly every reasoning in this threat was sensible from one point of view, some disregarding others, some very single-minded. You won't be able to please everyone at the same time, though for a company as GGG it's important to please both their core-players as well as the on-and-off casual player-base, and those don't mix well.
Just... take that part into consideration before saying 'The game should be harder! Even harder! And then some more!' or 'What? You can't play 100 hours in T16 maps with a 4k-life build glass-cannon without making a single error and loosing it? YOu noob!'. That all doesn't help anyone though, it's childish.

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Kulze a écrit :

RTS balance is childs play compared to an ARPG one as PoE, even most other RPG games are childs play in complexity.

Having lots of skills, modifiers, interactions does not mean that the game has "complexity" in a good way. There is this idea poe fans have, that because the game has lots of content, that means it is "sophisticated" or has depth. There is a reason most rpgs dont add a load of skills and mods every 3 months. PoE might have started with one of the most interesting and innovative class/skill systems in the genre. That is not the case anymore. Other games with far less "complexity" have actually more depth.

Yeah, sadly also true, though the passive-tree and option to choose is still top-class (gladly).
It's always a fine line to thread, either you make it too easy (One AOE skill, one single-target skill, one DoT and so on), or you make it too complex (8 different DoT skills for ice, 8 different... and so on). It's not easy to manage where the line is actually, for everyone this is different.

If it goes by me, another tripling of the amount of skills wouldn't be an issue, though I'm one of very few people who love to have trillions of options while only 3-4 might be the best since it's impossible to balance it. For me finding those options, making up 'perfect' builds which will never actually be achieved and similar things are 'fun'. For others it's picking up tons of currency, for others it's having an extremely hard time to reach the last boss and kill it. For even others it's making out-of-meta builds which do fun stuff but aren't feasable for end-game very much.
We have a ton of different people here, you'll always annoy someone with a change, no matter how small it is. The question is only: How many will you put off with it? Will it be a few? Or will that be a LOT (as we see with syndicate, hence why I'm saying it's an issue, or with the clunky implementation of synthesis, hence why I say while it's enjoyable for me, it's an issue right now).