can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it)

wtf

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robmafia a écrit :

oh, god. someone's trying to tell me how hard it is to obtain good BASES, let alone items.

and pretending it's somehow not power creep or making the game easier. while literally arguing that it's making it easier for shitty players to catch up.

poe 2019 - it's totally hard to get currency, amirite?

also, you're evading the whole point. like i already said, ONE implicit plus an enchant is already power creep. that BTFO your entire rant, alone. derp.

"

the counterpart of a non elder/shaper item, usually offering less options to be powerful in comparison to them.

it's as if elder/shaper items can have an enchantment and an implicit, too, or something.

my god, man. so many words, so much fail.

edit: added colors because evasion.

*ahem*

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Kulze a écrit :

since it's impossible to balance it.

false.

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Kulze a écrit :

For me finding those options, making up 'perfect' builds which will never actually be achieved and similar things are 'fun'. For others it's picking up tons of currency, for others it's having an extremely hard time to reach the last boss and kill it. For even others it's making out-of-meta builds which do fun stuff but aren't feasable for end-game very much.

yeah, it's like there are ladders or something.

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robmafia a écrit :

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Kulze a écrit :

since it's impossible to balance it.

false.

Well, then enlighten me how you would go ahead to balance 150 active skills with more supports then that, as well as over 1000 uniques, hundreds of different mods and implicits on rare items as well as corruptions and special unique effects.
All in a passive tree with over 1200 nodes, 6 classes with 3 ascensions each and a single class incorporating all of those in some shape or form.

I have thought quite a while about it already, only ever found a way to balance aspects of the game, not the game itself, so i'm fairly curious what your take on this would be.

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Kulze a écrit :

Just... take that part into consideration before saying 'The game should be harder! Even harder! And then some more!' or 'What? You can't play 100 hours in T16 maps with a 4k-life build glass-cannon without making a single error and loosing it? YOu noob!'. That all doesn't help anyone though, it's childish.

PoE isnt a hard game, actually. If you stick with meta skills/builds/playstyles/items/etc, you have a cakewalk. The lion's share of "player's skill" depends on that. It's because PoE is completely unbalanced. If you use OP, meta mechanics - it's freaking easy and gets easier every league. If you dont - you struggle like a madman. Just because you fallen into one of countless noobtraps.
Is it good? I dont think so.

"

Kulze a écrit :

Well, then enlighten me how you would go ahead to balance 150 active skills with more supports then that, as well as over 1000 uniques, hundreds of different mods and implicits on rare items as well as corruptions and special unique effects.
All in a passive tree with over 1200 nodes, 6 classes with 3 ascensions each and a single class incorporating all of those in some shape or form.

I have thought quite a while about it already, only ever found a way to balance aspects of the game, not the game itself, so i'm fairly curious what your take on this would be.

Quantity of skills doesnt matter, dude!
Balancing 150 skills take 10x more time than balancing 15 skills.
It isnt that hard to balance Sweep with Cleave, for example, and if you add Reave here - it wont make it really different, cause Reave & Cleave mechanics are kinda similar.
Skill mechanics does matter, though. Balacing skills with unique, different mechanics is harder, of course. Like spells & melee, etc. But it'still doable, if you stick with certain rules.

Sure, in CURRENT state of the game, when GGG just randomly threw shit at players (createn tons of uniques, skills, rare mods, more multipliers, etc), it became kinda hard to balance everything.
Just like cleaning the Augean stables in a single day. You know what Heracles did, right? Sometimes it's better to wash all the shit out and build everything from the scratch...

Yes, absolutely true, hence why i'm playing Winter Orb (As 90% of the other players this league it feels, tells is it's still broken). I'm in the game for the looting aspect, when i find an easy way I'll take it. Though on the other hand I'm working in standard on getting together an overpowered rare-only build to make a phys-stacking cyclone build. That one definitely isn't even remotely in meta right now, I just simply like Cyclone.

So, the gap is massive, that much is clear, it needs to be closed for those skills, overpowered ones turned down a notch (or 5 notches) while underpowered ones need to be turned up on the other hand.

Sadly that often doesn't mean simply forcing the damage up, rather the mechanics behind it. For instance some melee skills are bad at mapping but excel at bossing. So, giving them even more damage wouldn't fix the slow play-style, the unusable mechanic of shield charge in memory fragments, or that charging towards a ranged mob-pack at the wrong moment kills you mid-animation where a far more squishy build would survive because of their teleporting movement skill.

I hope those issues will be taken care of with 3.7.0 and the teased melee rework. But then we still got the problem with some skills literally devastating end-game.
Scourge arrow one-shots shaper with the right setup, Winter Orb just waltzes through content while you can ignore most threats. Herald of Agony provides a minion which has so much offense that you can make yourself nearly immortal and clear content - albeit slower - in a breeze. And many others. Those all need reworks along the line, either that or with 4.0.0 and a ton of extra content and storyline (hopefully) the others need to be risen to the same power-level as those.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

Quantity of skills doesnt matter, dude!
Balancing 150 skills take 10x more time than balancing 15 skills.
It isnt that hard to balance Sweep with Cleave, for example, and if you add Reave here - it wont make it really different, cause Reave & Cleave mechanics are kinda similar.
Skill mechanics does matter, though. Balacing skills with unique, different mechanics is harder, of course. Like spells & melee, etc. But it'still doable, if you stick with certain rules.

Sure, in CURRENT state of the game, when GGG just randomly threw shit at players (createn tons of uniques, skills, rare mods, more multipliers, etc), it became kinda hard to balance everything.
Just like cleaning the Augean stables in a single day. You know what Heracles did, right? Sometimes it's better to wash all the shit out and build everything from the scratch...

Actually... it does! Those 150 skills interact with those 1000 uniques and those 1200 passive points. It's not additive, it's multiplicative. Hence the amount of work put into securing that there won't be oversights is massively higher. Especially with the mentioned uniques, new skills and mechanics. The pace is too fast.

'Cleaning up' would absolutely be a solution... though... I only dare to imagine player retention numbers then :p It would be a shitstorm, an absolute disaster if changes in such a grade were to be applied suddenly. GGG can only adapt it piece by piece therefore, otherwise actually risking to ruin their goodwill and number of people playing the game in a drastic amount. It's just too risky. Rather provide a mildly broken but still enjoyable game then fixing it up in a way which could disgruntle the majority of the playerbase and destroy the hard work of building up such high numbers of active players over the course of the years.

I would love for them to work a whole league long only on optimization of the client, balancing of items and skills as well as a better integration of the new mechanics since 3.0.0.
I hope they'll do that with another sort of 'legacy league' before 4.0.0 hits, that would take care of a lot of problems most likely, and it would be a good timeframe to choose doing it. First throw in crap after crap mechanic, all with really great options but badly integrated, all meant to go core. Then swipe all over them in a single large move and work them up to be quality instead of simply quantity as it is now. Not perfect, but I guess that's what GGG will do.

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Kulze a écrit :

"

robmafia a écrit :

"

Kulze a écrit :

since it's impossible to balance it.

false.

Well, then enlighten me how you would go ahead to balance 150 active skills with more supports then that, as well as over 1000 uniques, hundreds of different mods and implicits on rare items as well as corruptions and special unique effects.
All in a passive tree with over 1200 nodes, 6 classes with 3 ascensions each and a single class incorporating all of those in some shape or form.

I have thought quite a while about it already, only ever found a way to balance aspects of the game, not the game itself, so i'm fairly curious what your take on this would be.

lolz @ this guy backpedaling so hard that he's pretending balance is impossible.

in a patch where an es leech gem got a more modifier.

in a thread about stopping power creep. after evading his previous claims and my retorts that were reposted in hot pink.

HURR DURR.

hint: removing and undoing the power creep... restores balance, already.

lolz @ suggesting balance is impossible because ggg keeps adding nonsensical amounts of power creep.

talk about a non-argument...

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robmafia a écrit :

lolz @ this guy backpedaling so hard that he's pretending balance is impossible.

in a patch where an es leech gem got a more modifier.

in a thread about stopping power creep. after evading his previous claims and my retorts that were reposted in hot pink.

HURR DURR.

hint: removing and undoing the power creep... restores balance, already.

lolz @ suggesting balance is impossible because ggg keeps adding nonsensical amounts of power creep.

talk about a non-argument...

First of all I answered your 'hot pink' writing. Though since you seemingly missed the point I made obviously I'll say it in more simple terms again:
Yes, it is a power-creep in this regard, yes, it isn't positive at the moment, no, we don't know if it'll be negative with the coming leagues as those seem to build up towards 4.0.0.
Easier for you to read now?

Also, your '..balance is impossible BECAUSE GGG keeps adding...' is misleading, I never connected those 2 together, you're laying words into my mouth as you've done a few times in this thread by now.

Given your answer this time as well as those before I am fairly curious now as:
A: You're tolling (which would be worst-case scenario, bad character trait and destructive)
B: You're not good at comprehending written things and reading intentions (Which would be an issue which isn't able to be resolved sadly, you can't get intelligent, only knowledgeable, actually the best-case scenario)
C: You're so butt-hurt from my comments that you're automatically misinterpreting my posts (Which is a bad character trait, but at least not destructive)

Especially visible by your signature boasting about all the nice bans you had as if those are a positive thing. Maybe you should think about why you got them rather then repeating the same behavior? Just as a suggestion.

But, to get back to answering your comments:

Let#s say we simply backpedal here as you said. We remove the implicits for ES. Now:
Would we remove the other 'powerful' implicits possible to create as well?
Would we only remove the ability to create implicits on jewels then?
Would you remove the whole synthesis mechanic instead?

The first creates more 'dead-mods' which will lead to more powerful items created otherwise, sporting implicits which are also 'power-creep'.
The second is sensible, but gets rid of the most rewarding bases to drop during the league while being not too common. It would be a huge downgrade to an already badly accepted league.
The third is absolutely impossible, the part which could happen is it not going core, which it definitely will in some shape or form, so you've got to realize that. GGG has put a ton of effort into it and won't simply throw such a - as cluttered as it is - mechanic out completely.

So, my big question therefore is: If you want to get rid of it, what would you instead do to make the league rewarding in some way?

Especially in bold letters to make it easy to see where the issue is. Either you keep it and accept the creep, or you remove a quite sizeable portion of the mods since ES-leech definitely isn't the only one creating an issue.

you didn't address it, you lied about it/spouted incorrect info.

no one should take your walls of bs seriously, you think that power creep isn't a problem - then you ask me how i'd fix the problem... in a thread that makes the solution LITERALLY self-explanatory.

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Kulze a écrit :

We have a ton of different people here, you'll always annoy someone with a change, no matter how small it is. The question is only: How many will you put off with it? Will it be a few? Or will that be a LOT (as we see with syndicate, hence why I'm saying it's an issue, or with the clunky implementation of synthesis, hence why I say while it's enjoyable for me, it's an issue right now).

Yes, this is the root of the problem and that's why I'm pessimistic. The most probable scenario is that PoE will manage to update the whole game to what they are trying to do now and classic arpg fans will just have to put their hopes on something like last epoch.

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Jdahl22 a écrit :

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Kulze a écrit :

We have a ton of different people here, you'll always annoy someone with a change, no matter how small it is. The question is only: How many will you put off with it? Will it be a few? Or will that be a LOT (as we see with syndicate, hence why I'm saying it's an issue, or with the clunky implementation of synthesis, hence why I say while it's enjoyable for me, it's an issue right now).

Yes, this is the root of the problem and that's why I'm pessimistic. The most probable scenario is that PoE will manage to update the whole game to what they are trying to do now and classic arpg fans will just have to put their hopes on something like last epoch.

How do you define 'classic' though? Diablo 1 or 2? Sacred? Dungeon Siege? Maybe even Torchlight?

We've seen a clear progression there over those years. Each of their styles started of slow, progressing towards being faster and stronger generally. I guess Path of Exile has just become 'old' enough to get enough content inside so the common feeling shifts slowly, feeling ever more since a completely new genre while leaving the games it has taken the concept from in the dust.
If that's good? Well... certainly not for the sake of nostalgia, but I would say it's good for the sake of the genre. The game is basically a pioneer right now, trying to handle building up more content then any of its genre has ever done before.

Maybe someday one game will come with as much content available and retaining the 'feel' of the games I personally started off with as well, but... upon looking back some of them haven't aged all that well. My favorite one is definitely still 'Dungeon Siege' with the intricate progression system that was very fun, though game-play wise it was very slow and simple-minded... at least in comparison to PoE. But that's what around a decade of additions to a game does, it just becomes enormous and complex, off-putting everyone who likes the simple-minded style it offered before. I can understand that, but as a fan if complexity in games I also wouldn't want it to stop on the other hand, a bit of a conundrum there who to please.

I'm thankful none of them listen to you all; Be funny if they did.