can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it)

I think the greater source of power creep actually comes from the skill rebalancing and not so much from synthesized gear. As Kulze pointed out, most players will never attain these perfectly rolled items.

But every casual player can make a Bane/Soulrend char and reach red maps on a 4-link. That somewhat goes to show that maps aren't the true endgame anymore, they are just a means to get to those few key fights like Shaper/Elder. Which feels kind of bad to realize 99% of the game is just a giant segway.

'hurr durr, if it's not perfectly rolled, it's not power creep!'

and yeah, it's as if the es leech/etc were just mentioned, or something. it's not just affixes. the power creep is everywhere.

and ffs, now there are implicits on implicits on enchantment implicits.

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robmafia a écrit :

'hurr durr, if it's not perfectly rolled, it's not power creep!'

and yeah, it's as if the es leech/etc were just mentioned, or something. it's not just affixes. the power creep is everywhere.

and ffs, now there are implicits on implicits on enchantment implicits.

Making the enchantments extra from implicits is actually good, neither two-tones boots nor bone helmets had any sort of use anymore, which was sad.

But yes, the ES changes are... a bit too massive to say the least, basically ES is the way to go this league, life is once again broken in comparison.

What I expect to happen is life-builds being reworked to fit into the new power-creep setting, preparing for 4.0 where a lot will be changed.

Also, while power-creep definitely is a thing, it's not bad at all, just shows the game is expanding further and further, and that's a nice thing to see. My guess is that with 4.0 that will all make sense, even if it's a while to get there yet. The ongoing leagues feel like pure preparation for what is to come rather then being the standalone projects they were before.

...wtf are you talking about?

i mentioned a pile of implicits per item (after posting an image of one such) and you're going on about the white implicits of bone helms and two-toned boots?

ffs, man. get with the program.

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Kulze a écrit :

Making the enchantments extra from implicits is actually good, neither two-tones boots nor bone helmets had any sort of use anymore, which was sad.

WTF ???
Bone helmets were one of the best options for anybody going next to the big minion wheel on the left side of the tree OO.

The screenshot of the ~600 ES helmet is just freaking insane, like seriously, it's extremely hard to get but how can one not see how ridiculous that item is ???

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Kulze a écrit :

Also, while power-creep definitely is a thing, it's not bad at all, just shows the game is expanding further and further, and that's a nice thing to see.

So .. you're QQing about the syndicate, which are pure products of the power creep .... and yet consider power creep to be good ???
Seems to me that you just don't want anything to be even remotely difficult and want just more power and an easier game ...

It's so freaking stupid that they not only added ES leech but gave crafters ways of making totally broken OP ES gear on top of it. The leech itself perhaps wouldn't have been bad (in theory it's only half the rate of life leech) if ES itself wasn't so buffed overall.

But then also that stupid ES leech gem that adds a giant more multiplier for no reason. And killing overleech for life.

The powercreep is real and it's awful, and it's accompanied by forcing us into specific predetermined metas each league - metas we can all see coming as soon as we see the patch notes, so it's just BORING.

Well, at least we can still intentionally gimp ourselves with pure phys melee slayer.

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Fruz a écrit :

WTF ???
Bone helmets were one of the best options for anybody going next to the big minion wheel on the left side of the tree OO.

The screenshot of the ~600 ES helmet is just freaking insane, like seriously, it's extremely hard to get but how can one not see how ridiculous that item is ???

What? Bone helmet offers less protection compared to T1 helmet bases and the implicit got overrolled by lab-enchant. It was a secondary solution, not a primary one. The lab enchant for the respective summoner type was far superior. So 'one of the best' was purely 'I can't bother to get lab enchant or I don't have enough currency for it' and that's it.

But yes, as said, the ES buffs this league were too big, they need to rework the ascendancy so it gets balanced out properly and more classes can work with ES gear and have a decent life... rather then just 1 :p

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Fruz a écrit :

So .. you're QQing about the syndicate, which are pure products of the power creep .... and yet consider power creep to be good ???
Seems to me that you just don't want anything to be even remotely difficult and want just more power and an easier game ...

Proper reading gives you a good headstart compared to other people. Since you're saying 'I find it good' the whole base of your example is worthless sadly. Why? I never said it's 'good', I mentioned it can be both, and given the upcoming big change towards 4.0 we'll have to wait how it plays out to make educated remarks about the creep being 'good' or 'bad' as is.

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Kulze a écrit :

What? Bone helmet offers less protection compared to T1 helmet bases and the implicit got overrolled by lab-enchant.

Don't play dumb please.
Nobody is aiming at 2 armour prefixes, people want LIFE, and more secondary defense as an option.
This plus the fact that all elemental/chaos builds want the AOE resistnace debuff, the optimized way is to go with pristine + [insert corresponding fossil].
Somebody who was going for a bone helmet (which offered similar power to most of the uber lab enchant) and adding a lab enchant on it was either very uninformed, or not very clever.

Saying that bone helmet were not good items with the 40% minion dmg roll on them was incredibly uninformed, or just bad at optimizing a character.


You didn't only said that power creep could be good, you also said stuff like
" power-creep in itself isn't an issue either" ...
So if it can be bad, it would be bad but not an issue itself ?
N
No, it isn't good, in some cases it's not very impactful but it still isn't good, in the case of PoE it lead the game to a pretty bad place regarding balance overall.

Power creep in term of raw dmg, speed and coverage simply fucked melee (and not only melee) if we compare it to fotm setups, it's as simple as that.

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Fruz a écrit :

Don't play dumb please.
Nobody is aiming at 2 armour prefixes, people want LIFE, and more secondary defense as an option.
This plus the fact that all elemental/chaos builds want the AOE resistnace debuff, the optimized way is to go with pristine + [insert corresponding fossil].
Somebody who was going for a bone helmet (which offered similar power to most of the uber lab enchant) and adding a lab enchant on it was either very uninformed, or not very clever.

Saying that bone helmet were not good items with the 40% minion dmg roll on them was incredibly uninformed, or just bad at optimizing a character.


You didn't only said that power creep could be good, you also said stuff like
" power-creep in itself isn't an issue either" ...
So if it can be bad, it would be bad but not an issue itself ?
N
No, it isn't good, in some cases it's not very impactful but it still isn't good, in the case of PoE it lead the game to a pretty bad place regarding balance overall.

Power creep in term of raw dmg, speed and coverage simply fucked melee (and not only melee) if we compare it to fotm setups, it's as simple as that.

Yes, exactly why I'm saying 'Bone helmets are secondary before the introduction of seperated inplicits from lab enchants'.
Take a Hubris Circlet with the lab enchant and you got effective Life-pool compared to an armor or Evasion base.

Also, 20% inc damage isn't 'similar', it's the power of another jewel mod, that's nothing to scoff at when min-maxing a character. The enchant itself isn't that expensive to simply forego it, crafting on a hubris circlet with the respective enchant was (before the change) the far better informed way to do it.

And yes, about power-creep, I'll stand by the words of 'It COULD be good', also by it 'IN ITSELF' it isn't an issue. Not offering any place to use said power-creep on the other hand is one, and there's where the problem sits.

Imagine it simple: Map until Tier 20, uber-elder not the last boss, or maybe even a second atlas which moves the story along after killing uber-elder. Would you need the new overpowered mods? Probably, most likely even.
Right now? Not really.
That's also why I said that syndicate was poorly implemented. It took the existing framework and changed it massively. The core-gameplay of mapping got made a ton harder, hindering progression massively therefore which isn't good for the 'flow' of the game. Barely viable builds got pushed out of existance completely, and anything besides 'tons of damage' and 'gotta go fast' are done for this way as you can't survive the encounters with a pure defensive build very well. Lacking mobility at syndicate encounters is fatal, and trying to tank them is suicidal as they - fairly regularly actually - got combinations which get through a 10k life build immediately.

That's the issue I'm speaking about, it's bad game-design and was a wrong choice, has to be fixed and reworked properly. Power-creep makes the game uninteresting if overdone, changing up progression to make a ton of builds non-viable - though those were mostly played for fun rather then efficiency anyway - is a bad choice.
Formerly ANY skill could be used to progress through the atlas and even kill uber-elder, heck... there's a video out about someone doing it with leap slam, it just needs a ton of min-maxing and a very good player. Now you won't be able to get to that point as game mechanics hinder you to progress towards that stage, steadily punishing you for choosing the 'wrong' skill or 'wrong' build for content which is was viable in since.. forever.

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Kulze a écrit :

Yes, exactly why I'm saying 'Bone helmets are secondary before the introduction of seperated inplicits from lab enchants'.
Take a Hubris Circlet with the lab enchant and you got effective Life-pool compared to an armor or Evasion base.

As I said already, stop playing dumb please.

Like .. fucking seriously.
Did you notice how what I said was for life-based builds ???
Do you know what a pristine fossil is ???
Yeah, obviously going to high ES on helmet will require an Hubris, that's a completely different story already.
Thank you Sherlock.

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Kulze a écrit :

Also, 20% inc damage isn't 'similar', it's the power of another jewel mod, that's nothing to scoff at when min-maxing a character.

For fuck sake :

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Fruz a écrit :

Saying that bone helmet were not good items with the 40% minion dmg roll on them

READ, and stop playing dumb, AGAIN.

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Kulze a écrit :

The core-gameplay of mapping got made a ton harder, hindering progression massively therefore which isn't good for the 'flow' of the game

This is exactly why it is good, because this game is all about progression, and when progression is way too freaking fast compared to what it was already with the exact same content, it hurts the game.

There is no need to add 5 tiers of maps, because it does not matter to mostly fotm broken setups who would crush everything anyway, and on top of that it would even speed the climb to 100 even more.
Did you ever consider this before throwing this out ?
No you didn't, of course you didn't.
Every wondered why delve mobs' level cap at 83 ?

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Kulze a écrit :

That's the issue I'm speaking about, it's bad game-design and was a wrong choice, has to be fixed and reworked properly. Power-creep makes the game uninteresting if overdone

Power creep is by definition something overdone.
The moment you diminish the importance of already implemented content, it's already overdone.

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Kulze a écrit :

Formerly ANY skill could be used to progress through the atlas and even kill uber-elder, heck... there's a video out about someone doing it with leap slam, it just needs a ton of min-maxing and a very good player. Now you won't be able to get to that point as game mechanics hinder you to progress towards that stage, steadily punishing you for choosing the 'wrong' skill or 'wrong' build for content which is was viable in since.. forever.

You can kill uber elder with a glass canon if you play perfectly.
And you can kill syndicate members the exact same way if you play perfectly.

If you make 0 mistakes, you can surely take down syndicate members with a min maxed leap slam build.