can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it)

I don't define classic as slow or fast. What matters is the structure, fundamentals and logic behind the game. Problem with PoE is not that it became faster, but that it lost cohesion. It's like adding floors to an old structure instead of rebuilding from the ground up.

What definitely has to go are those always arising and tedious one-shot mechanics. Both for the player and for the monsters. That would probably solve the majority of the issues which people complain about.

The syndicate does it, uber-elder has a lot of situations you can't stop on many builds but you as the player are doing the same. Stun-locking, perma-freezing, ridiculous amounts of damage and crit put together.

If those would be scaled into a way where you can still speed-clear maps and content while offering a proper amount of challenge rather then the momentary 'binary gameplay style' (Either death of alive), then it would be quite a lot more fun and return a lot of the proper feeling of the 'olden' - and good! - ARPGs.

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Kulze a écrit :

What definitely has to go are those always arising and tedious one-shot mechanics.

wtf.

argues incessantly in favor of power creep. THEN SAYS THE ABOVE.

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robmafia a écrit :

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Kulze a écrit :

What definitely has to go are those always arising and tedious one-shot mechanics.

wtf.

argues incessantly in favor of power creep. THEN SAYS THE ABOVE.

Umh... because that... are 2 seperate topics? You know, power creep =//= one-shot mechanics. Otherwise power-creep would be called... one-shot mechanic and vice verse?

...lolz

argues incessantly. has NO IDEA what the topic even means.

...why do you think the game has rampant one-shots?


hint: it's the same topic

Oh, that's easy, because GGG started off with a specific game-mechanic in mind, not expecting the progression to lead towards what we have at the moment, that can be seen by the game-design and implemented systems along the way. As one example lock-step for game-mechanics slowing down the server by overburdening it, something which couldn't be done quite a while ago actually, it only crept up as more and more items with different stacks were introduced, allowing thousands of stacks to be applied in a short time on several mobs in the area.

Given the new content GGG then went along to simply raise the bar with new multipliers and additive options to make builds more powerful, raising the damage modifiers. Both armor and evasion itself wasn't able to keep up in such scales as it was never intended to do.

That lead to what we have now, a highly-scaled damage system which in itself leads to being overpowered or underpowered with only a minimal margin in-between both. In a try to keep everything seeming like it's a challenge they implemented mechanics which could one-shot you along the line, by that time - which was 3.0.0 - the damage already was done though, no matter what mechanic you would add to it the same feeling was going to creep up into the game.


Solutions? Well the most obvious one isn't to 'reverse' the whole thing as you've stated, it's one, but a rather destructive solution. From a player retention and business standpoint GGG can't do that, it would be a disaster.
One thing which can be done though is a rework of the base damage system, meaning from the ground up the whole system of how modifiers work, how much damage mobs do and how effects can be applied needs to be redone completely.
One very effective way to do that is to add effectiveness modifiers behind every single upgrade which is similar after the first of its type. Inc damage stays additive, all multiplicative ones have diminishing returns though.

This would allow changes in power level which can be felt by the player, feeling 'good' while also allowing a rework for the base-system of how mobs apply damage. Also, there are several solutions for that as well. One way would be to give monsters the same diminishing multipliers along the way, hence leveling out the playing field.

To make this system work though there needs to be another layer of checks implemented, otherwise a new issue would become apparent, starting from T10 or so every content would feel roughly the same, the higher you go, the less effect everything has, the less you can feel getting stronger. So it would need to check the amount of separate modifiers applied to your character, adjusting the monster defenses based on your personal equipment. They wouldn't get actually stronger, they would just feel more powerful in comparison. And since higher leveled mobs would get more multiplicative modifiers the effectiveness of their attacks towards you with defensive gear which isn't 'fitting' for the power-level would feel outstanding.

Such a system can be scaled indefinitely, always feeling either like a challenge, or making it a walk in the park when managing to get through the 'barrier' needed to make everything apply fully.

this is unreal.

literally argues for power creep and then criticizes it... and then simultaneously argues both in a giant wall of trash text.

lolz @ complaining about one shots (ie: power)

You really don't get the difference in topics there, do you?

Power-creep is a natural evolution of game-design, the more content gets implemented the more old content isn't viable anymore, that's 'self-explanatory' as you love to say.
Which means - to say it easier for you - if you Implement a mod doubling your damage simply, the old mod doing it for a % chance is obsolete, hence --> power-creep. People will move towards that mod as it's strong.

So? Still following? That's the part you already know after all, but here it comes!

If we say new tiers of maps get implemented, all up to lvl 100 as end-game rather then lvl 83, and only items above itemlevel 86 can roll the new mods, this still is power-creep. Nonetheless it would be appropriate to the new content presented. Hence a power-creep which is sensible and 'good'. Compared to the one you're talking about where new powerful ways of getting items are implemented by no places where those are explicitly needed. Hence the 'bad' type of power-creep.

Both are the same term, one though is the natural evolution of a game which is expanded on steadily, the other is an oversight, bad game-design or simply something in preparation - here we have my 4.0.0 argument - for an upgrade to come which makes it relevant.

Since we know 4.0.0 is coming the big question right now is not if power creep is bad RIGHT NOW, it's if the power creep will be ALLEVIATED by the implementation of those new mechanics, and if we simply have to bear with it for the time being as there is a proper plan behind it.

That's - what I've stated several times - is what my hopes are that GGG will do, implementing the 'big update of 4.0.0' in 2020 in a sensible manner so the good feeling of PoE will return, offering a proper sense of challenge while also not screwing over those people which already struggle to achieve the shaper-kill. This would be one of - probably dozens - of solutions possible to make this happen, if worked out in detail.

That definitely won't happen in-between a single league though, the time is just not enough. GGG doesn't even manage to handle the issues which have crept up from Betrayal, not to speak of those from Synthesis. Reworking the base game-mechanics is far out of thought right now. First of all they have to adjust that people can run the core-content without issues until that happens, keeping in mind player retention, then they can adjust the system to a new working one so the 'proper' so it turns back from a system which lets you one-shot shaper to one where each single fight during the game is challenging along the progression, actually forcing people to upgrade equipment during the acts as well, during white maps, during yellow maps and during red maps steadily.
Right now we got people using uniques to speed-rush through Act 1-10 in under 2 hours, under 4 hours starting fresh even. Also we have people reaching lvl 100 after roughly 1 week. With the changes the time to get through the content in general would rise upwards, though reaching lvl 100 would stay the same, as upon reaching end-content and being geared appropriately you can then run maps permanently without issues while having hard challenges along the side unlocking powerful items which provide mods needed for the bossing-stage. No more lvl 70 uber-elder kills for instance, you need a specific amount of modifiers rolling only on ilvl 83 equipment to break that barrier to actually to the respective damage. Same going for the defensive modifiers on your equipment not to take massive amount of damage.

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Kulze a écrit :

You really don't get the difference in topics there, do you?

...

yup, this is unreal.

this guy is so clueless that he doesn't realize that he's complaining about the effect of power creep (one-shots).

lolz @ "natural evolution of game-design"

- natural evolution, guyz!

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Kulze a écrit :

Power-creep is a natural evolution of game-design, the more content gets implemented the more old content isn't viable anymore, that's 'self-explanatory' as you love to say.

No, stop with that BS please, REALLY.

There are ways to add new content, making it appealing without making old content obsolete progression wise, there are many elements that can make content appealing and useful.

Seeing "power" as the only thing that makes content appealing (<=> saying that power creep is inevitable and even natural) is incredibly short-sighted at best.


GGG have gone too far with ridiculous power creep, they can't go back, they cannot "clean" their game anymore without loosing a significant part of the player base.
It's going to get worse and worse in this regard, until another game is created and can start with a clean base.



And yes, "one shot" as people call them ( hint : QQing people are people lacking defenses in the vast majority of the cases ) are a direct result of the power creep.
If GGG would not allow people to reach absurd amounts of power, they would not need to tune some pieces of the content to still be a threat to them => have such damage spikes.
When players can instantly kill most things, the only way they can be challenges is with either quite ridiculous burst damage ( because nothing lives long enough to be a threat otherwise ), or on-death effects and such.