Its time for fortify+movement skill to die

Why? You're putting yourself in melee range when you do it, so why shouldnt you get fortify?

Maybe there's a discussion to be had whether you should lose fortify when you cast a spell, but your post as it is makes no sense whatsoever.

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goetzjam a écrit :

The best caster weapon in the game right now is brightbeak.....


Why? Shield charge+faster attacks+fortify.

It's not fortify, dawg, it's cause of the movement skill. Whether it's shield charge or whirl it doesnt matter.

Base movement speed is S H I T. It's Slow Motion City. And since casters are effectively broken - you dont need any damage on your gear - you may as well use a weapon that gives you fastest zoom zoom around the map. They could nerf movement skill, nerf QoTF, and buff base movement speed and nobody will feel forced into the shield charge garbage. But as it is, it's shield charge or delete your character.

One way to buff melee survivability vs ranged/caster, would be to rework the melee phys support gem. Instead of the boring stat bonus, it could grant a proper fortify buff (in addition to the basic stat boost).

Something like:
20% less damage taken
20% reduced movement speed
20% more armour
20% less evasion/dodge
Buff lasts for 1 second.

And a similar one for evasion/dodge builds ("concentration" or something), which would boost evasion/dodge, but reduce movement speed.

Also, you could have a nice movement skill for casters:

Void walk:
Channelled, directed skill.
Requires: wand.
Player "levitates" towards the direction direction.
Gain x% of cast speed as more movement speed.
Cannot crit.

You could even support it with the new storm barrier-gem.

While you're at it, man up and change these movement skills to be inline with your vision.

12s cooldown.

I am so tired of the retarded "DASH WALL DASH DASH WALL DASH DASH" every time I see a PoE video.

Moving fast should involve an opportunity cost just like everything else.

I started the game in perandus, and got my first char capable of whirling blades this league. Ofc its linked with FA and fortify, with 1.90 as weapon to boot. I've fell in love with this char immediately. I did uber izaro terribly drunk, carrying some guy, where probably my totem did all the work (2 minutes at least), meanwhile i was WB through all the arena like a maniac. I even prefer my weak ass fortify char to my srs, which still dies way too often with 9.5k es.
SO, imagining some vaal fireballer or a bowyer using fortify adds further insult to the injury.
Fortify is useless with leap slam (can you imagine leap slam into enemy as srs?). With bow jump skill its useless as well, due to 3 high cooldown. SO it's only viable with WB and SC. It's quite pathetic that movement skill decides what weapon you gonna use, and some users are screwed heavily just due to that.

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Ultimately, though, I think that PoE should follow the lead of D3: just give the melee classes a 20 or 30 percent flat damage reduction, full stop, and call it a day. Balance them as casters by making it more costly to use them for those builds, rather than trying to beat a separate skill into shape to provide the survivability they need for being in the face of the boss, and so unable to dodge so much.

(Heck, just give free fortify on melee tagged skill use if you want, and remove it on use of a spell or ranged tagged skill.)

The thing is any class can be played as anything, so you can't give bonuses to defenses like you can in d3, it must be given a different way.


Alternatively, they could give all non movement melee skills the ability to get fortify on hit (and I guess cyclone too, because its technically not a real movement skill but a primary skill used with movement)

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Please play said builds, then come back to edit out your misconceptions

You mean play a sparker, any caster or minion build or support? I've played those all in the past 2 years of the game. Hell I've done all but sparker in the last year of the game.


There is no misconception here, you use shield charge+fortify+faster attacks on every single character you are able to. Maybe the mobility is fine, maybe the defensive bonus is fine because you charge in.

But them both together is a design and balance nightmare.

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What you don't realize is that all of the listed skills above only work if you have melee weapon in main hand. So 100% of melee builds use this alredy. As consecuence you are basically nerfing melee by one link since they will be forced to use it on main link. Also not sure about cyclone/flicker strike and things like, those are used as main skill and not just movement.

And people go out of their way to use a melee weapon if they can. Casters, summoners, ect. Cyclone and flicker already have semi different rules in place, even though they are movement tagged skills.


And what you are forgetting is if they removed the possibility for other playstyles to cheese fortify, they could buff it for ones that it is intended for.

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No diversity? Is using faster attacks with EVERY movement skill diversity? Is just there because it fits and makes gameplay smoother.

"smoother" and by that you mean moving all around the bosses\mechanics faster then they can react or respond. Yeah really good design there. Much smoothness, such wow.

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How typical: Trash a bread-and-butter DEFENSIVE melee skill FOR ALL MELEE BUILDS in order to prevent SOME caster builds from exploiting it.

Trash it for mobility, so that true melee playstyles max reap the benefits they were sold back in 2.0? Sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

Its not just some caters, its supports, minion builds, anything except for 2 handers(and bows) and with elder\shaped items reducing the socket pressure its even less important then it was in the past to have 2 6 link setups.

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Really shouldn't because you decided it this way? lmao
Then don't get fortify.

No because that is what GGG said back in 2.0 closed beta when people pointed out that casters could still get fortify. It wasn't until slightly later when people discovered with desync removed that you could shield charge for mobility and not go back, get defense and high mobility.

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Wait what do non-melee people need fortify for anyway?

They don't, they simply get it now because its way too fucking easy to do so.

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Why? You're putting yourself in melee range when you do it, so why shouldnt you get fortify?

Maybe there's a discussion to be had whether you should lose fortify when you cast a spell, but your post as it is makes no sense whatsoever.

Because shield charging thru a mob to the other side doens't actually put you in risk, it just gives you the buff because you touched a mob. A true melee playstyle character would remain in danger, but not many of the casters, supports, and minion builds out there.

Again there is more then just spell caters abusing this, its everyone, except 2 hander and bow characters.

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Base movement speed is S H I T. It's Slow Motion City. And since casters are effectively broken - you dont need any damage on your gear - you may as well use a weapon that gives you fastest zoom zoom around the map. They could nerf movement skill, nerf QoTF, and buff base movement speed and nobody will feel forced into the shield charge garbage. But as it is, it's shield charge or delete your character.

Maybe and maybe that is a potential solution to counter balance it, global 10% base increase or remove penalties for various pieces slowing you down.

Fact of the matter is for years before 2.0 people played without spamming mass mobility skills that provided so much benefit to a character. But the game is so much faster in every single way and a good way to combat the quicker level 100s, the saturation of the economy in leagues, the trivialization of mechanics from bosses, is by removing the way to get a defensive bonus for using your mobility skill. Mobility itself is a defensive mechanic, why does it double dip?

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It's quite pathetic that movement skill decides what weapon you gonna use, and some users are screwed heavily just due to that.

Pretty much sums up one of the largest reasons why this needs to change.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Again there is more then just spell caters abusing this, its everyone, except 2 hander and bow characters.

Ok, you got that wrong, there are us "dying breed" of dual wielding melee users that do entertain Leap Slamming into the fray...

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goetzjam a écrit :

Maybe and maybe that is a potential solution to counter balance it, global 10% base increase or remove penalties for various pieces slowing you down.

Fact of the matter is for years before 2.0 people played without spamming mass mobility skills that provided so much benefit to a character. But the game is so much faster in every single way and a good way to combat the quicker level 100s, the saturation of the economy in leagues, the trivialization of mechanics from bosses, is by removing the way to get a defensive bonus for using your mobility skill. Mobility itself is a defensive mechanic, why does it double dip?

Actually, I would enjoy more penalties regarding movement speed and maybe a rework to the Art of the Gladiator notable that removes ALL movement speed penalties from armour...

Movement skills should always be either slow when unlimited, or engagingly fast with a set number of uses...

And I don't see a problem in having mobility skills provide various defensive bonuses as long as those are a lot more limited in effect and duration IF they are used to escape, not attack.

Fortify should grant you a lesser bonus when tagged to a mobility skill, that can always be used to manually dodge incoming hits, grant normal bonus when used with an attack that locks you in place, and grant further bonus when you are in close proximity to danger, and "hug" your enemy.

Why didn't GGG already "fixed", it's far beyond me...

"

Ok, you got that wrong, there are us "dying breed" of dual wielding melee users that do entertain Leap Slamming into the fray...

Look at title, then look at your comment.

While shield charge+fortify is the worst offender its not the only one.

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Actually, I would enjoy more penalties regarding movement speed and maybe a rework to the Art of the Gladiator notable that removes ALL movement speed penalties from armour...

Rofl....that is dumb as hell, don't really know how else to say it. GGG already has many items in the game that are uniques that have the reduced movement speed modifier on them that doesn't get bypassed by the duelist node.

Game already feels sluggish at the start and is one of the larger reasons why more people don't play.

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Movement skills should always be either slow when unlimited, or engagingly fast with a set number of uses...

They should be useable. Not OMG i did this and this and this and now look at me im sonic and i get defense if anything hits me (because id hit them with my shield charge)

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And I don't see a problem in having mobility skills provide various defensive bonuses as long as those are a lot more limited in effect and duration IF they are used to escape, not attack.

You mean like how AA does? O wait it doesn't its absolutely useless while moving except a weak chilling ground effect.

AA while moving should work better then fortify with a movement skill, but it doesnt.

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Fortify should grant you a lesser bonus when tagged to a mobility skill, that can always be used to manually dodge incoming hits, grant normal bonus when used with an attack that locks you in place, and grant further bonus when you are in close proximity to danger, and "hug" your enemy.

Why grant any defensive bonus at all for using something you are going to use already to dodge fucking attacks. Its dumb and just encourages poor play.

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Why didn't GGG already "fixed", it's far beyond me...

Because instead of fixing what could be the problem behind it they have to nerf a whole bunch of stuff into uselessness first.


Look at poison for example, volt rift was popular and powerful because of it. Yet after the nerf to the weapon poison was still strong and broken. Yet look at volt rift now, its dogshit and even worst then before they did anything with poison buffs\nodes.

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goetzjam a écrit :

"

Ok, you got that wrong, there are us "dying breed" of dual wielding melee users that do entertain Leap Slamming into the fray...

Look at title, then look at your comment.

While shield charge+fortify is the worst offender its not the only one.

"

Actually, I would enjoy more penalties regarding movement speed and maybe a rework to the Art of the Gladiator notable that removes ALL movement speed penalties from armour...

Rofl....that is dumb as hell, don't really know how else to say it. GGG already has many items in the game that are uniques that have the reduced movement speed modifier on them that doesn't get bypassed by the duelist node.

Game already feels sluggish at the start and is one of the larger reasons why more people don't play.

"

Movement skills should always be either slow when unlimited, or engagingly fast with a set number of uses...

They should be useable. Not OMG i did this and this and this and now look at me im sonic and i get defense if anything hits me (because id hit them with my shield charge)

"

And I don't see a problem in having mobility skills provide various defensive bonuses as long as those are a lot more limited in effect and duration IF they are used to escape, not attack.

You mean like how AA does? O wait it doesn't its absolutely useless while moving except a weak chilling ground effect.

AA while moving should work better then fortify with a movement skill, but it doesnt.

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Fortify should grant you a lesser bonus when tagged to a mobility skill, that can always be used to manually dodge incoming hits, grant normal bonus when used with an attack that locks you in place, and grant further bonus when you are in close proximity to danger, and "hug" your enemy.

Why grant any defensive bonus at all for using something you are going to use already to dodge fucking attacks. Its dumb and just encourages poor play.

"

Why didn't GGG already "fixed", it's far beyond me...

Because instead of fixing what could be the problem behind it they have to nerf a whole bunch of stuff into uselessness first.


Look at poison for example, volt rift was popular and powerful because of it. Yet after the nerf to the weapon poison was still strong and broken. Yet look at volt rift now, its dogshit and even worst then before they did anything with poison buffs\nodes.

Well, you implied that only 2 handers and bows don't use Fortify when needed aka going in, instead of out of danger. You're welcomed to provide me with an efficient way of getting closer to the ranged enemies and grant an effect as Fortify without the use of a movement skill...

Shield charge, leap slam or whirling blades should grant the Fortify buff as long as you keep using another melee skill to hit the enemy post their use, because that would imply that you went IN, instead of getting OUT.

Oh, I know the "hidden" modes on unique/various items that don't get reduced, but all of them don't stop us for a second to become various Road Runners or Sonic the hedgehog...

An armoured character should ALWAYS move slower than a leather/robe protected one, even just to add some "weight" and "meaning" to that choice...

And if you stop using the movement skill as plain "spam", and resort to it to enhance your tactics, you shouldn't get penalised, but rewarded by getting the Fortify buff.

AA needs a rework to get on par, or even better than Fortify, especially that too weak chill effect, even solely due to it's reserved mana requirement.

Fortify needs to grant a lesser bonus for movement skills as to provide some "wiggle" room regarding errors, as we do "enjoy" an always online experience (if you could guarantee that GGG would polish every new encounter and won't provide us with overtuned monster damage spike, I would support your stance without a blink, unfortunately, that is a pipe dream), but if you're so drastic, it could also be replaced by a different "buff", as just plainly removing it when used with a movement skill will feel "lacklustre" to say the least...

This might be a huge problem for you, but this never, and I do mean NEVER EVER, trivialised all game content, in the same measure Spark + Voltaxic did, due to poison double dipping. Heck, they even fixed the problem regarding minions remaining alive and killing bosses after your death, before addressing Fortify + movement skills. And it was the right thing to do.

But we're talking about GGG, and they do tag "melee" to those cool AoE/ranged attacks like candy to a Christmas tree. A further fix to this problem might take a while...

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toyotatundra a écrit :

Why? You're putting yourself in melee range when you do it, so why shouldnt you get fortify?

Maybe there's a discussion to be had whether you should lose fortify when you cast a spell, but your post as it is makes no sense whatsoever.

+10