Why did Eternal Orbs have to be removed and not mirrors?

"

tm10067 a écrit :

"

Apos91 a écrit :

"

tm10067 a écrit :

Lol, ppl hail communism!

Don't you think that mirror gear owners made horrific level of investment to be able to reap their mirror fees?

I do not think they deserve a continuous fee without actively investing more, no.

And, no, that's not communism. Were they to make a 200 ex profit from a single item, I wouldn't care in the slightest. As long as they don't get to keep that item and have the profit propagate passively.

So what would you say about musicians who get revenue on their songs thorought whole life and even pass it to descendants?

And mirror gear guys still invest their time and skill making transactions in person with those who want to get gg gear.

Irrelevant comparison, the game does not take part in a real economy and I'm not making an appeal for reformation of the world economy. The game was supposed to be based on a natural resource economy. Mirrors threw that out of the window and brought in what is the equivalent of interest rates.

"

StDrakeX a écrit :

"

Apos91 a écrit :

And without any risk of any failure whatsoever.

And again you seem to not understand that the risk is taken at the point of crafting. For every item you see there's probably thousands that have tried and ultimately failed. Guess what it's 25-30ex a pop to try to eternal craft items nowadays on Standard, where most of this actually matters.

And your point is?

This still doesn't remove the income from those who acquired such items from before the eternal orb was this expensive due to its removal. And that's the point, this income is everlasting.

There is a cutting point where the "hurr durr, these people invested on this, they deserve the profit!" stops applying. And due to the nature of mirror services, that cutting point will always be met eventually.

NOTHING should deserve a theoretical endless income.

And it's the same people who sell the eternal orbs nowadays anyway.

So what you're saying is that mirrors are fine because eternals are expensive. That provides nothing on why eternals would be bad without mirrors though, which is what I'm arguing: The removal of mirrors is much healthier than the removal of eternal orbs.

Did the removal gate the mirror service slightly? Sure. But was the problem that good gear popped up or that it could be propagated like cockroaches? And since it's the mirror that was responsible for that propagation and the top gear still exists, the removal of the eternal and maintaining the mirror solves nothing of what was called a "problem".

At least if little Timmy from the hood gets to create a top gear with eternal orbs, it will most likely stay with little Timmy.

You only need to look no further than Legacy League to see why needed to be removed. Up until this league there has only been a couple of things actually mirrored during a league and those items pale in comparison to what is available in Standard. The minuscule availability of eternals has seen some insane gear being crafted that happens to pop up weekly on the Poe subreddit.

"

StDrakeX a écrit :

You only need to look no further than Legacy League to see why needed to be removed. Up until this league there has only been a couple of things actually mirrored during a league and those items pale in comparison to what is available in Standard. The minuscule availability of eternals has seen some insane gear being crafted that happens to pop up weekly on the Poe subreddit.

The legacy league has both, so that argument is complete bollocks because the fact that eternal orbs and mirrors existing at the same time is insanely bad has already been conceded.

I have 2 people with mirrored gear in my guild right now and have been around since before eternal orbs existed. I know full well what the existence of these 2 at the same time results to and I never argued otherwise.

So, unless you hastily read everything, I'll repeat it once again for you to get it: It's not about whether these 2 should exist at the same time. It's about which one of them does the most damage. And since mirrors is the currency that completely screws how everything else in the game works, I'd argue that they are the bigger elephant in the room and what should have got the axe.

So the acceleration of perfect levels of gear is less detrimental in your eyes than an item that literally no use during a league when people aren't able to craft decent enough gear for people to even consider using a mirror, knowing full well something better exists elsewhere?

"

StDrakeX a écrit :

So the acceleration of perfect levels of gear is less detrimental in your eyes than an item that literally no use during a league when people aren't able to craft decent enough gear for people to even consider using a mirror, knowing full well something better exists elsewhere?

This degree of rapid acceleration only applies to the people that would acquire that gear either way through influencing the market and then having the currency to immediately buy off the first 5/6xT1 item that gets listed for a respective slot. Always been like that, every league ever. With or without eternals.

And frankly, I'm ok with that. It makes little difference. I'm ok with them having the economic strength to buy whatever they want. I can't even say it's hard to acquire that economic strength. It is tedious though, so if they are willing to go through the steps required, more power to them. Won't bitch about it when I willingly do not take those steps.

For everyone else, slowly working towards a good piece of gear through eternals/exalts is just as fast as hoping for a rare item to drop or farming the currency to buy it. And it doesn't hurt the economy as much as people farming currency to get a replica of that already existing bow in my opinion. At least crafting requires an influx and actual useage of exalts/eternals, so currency does get destroyed much more in the process compared to 1 mirror use.

Then you should know that mirrors are absolutely useless during leagues without Eternals as that level of gear is very rare hence I've been able to buy Mirrors every league I've been bothered to for 50 or so exalts early on. Mirrors are imho the lesser of the two evils if they can even be called that since I think they both serve a purpose and in my eyes gear should be crafted to dethrone Standard gear every league or at least have a chance to...

"

StDrakeX a écrit :

Then you should know that mirrors are absolutely useless during leagues without Eternals as that level of gear is very rare hence I've been able to buy Mirrors every league I've been bothered to for 50 or so exalts early on. Mirrors are imho the lesser of the two evils if they can even be called that since I think they both serve a purpose and in my eyes gear should be crafted to dethrone Standard gear every league or at least have a chance to...

But that already happens.

In essence league, we had their unique affixes to bring into standard. Rare gloves with global crit chance? Here you go player, but you can't have that with eternals! Fun for the whole family!

Talisman was...well, talisman.

In ambush we were a bit more gung ho with vaal orbs than standard. Bringing in some sweet corruptions into standard later. (Vaal orb remains the best addition in the game in my opinion, it's a pity it has lost a lot of usefulness with lab enhancements)

Etc, etc. Obviously some leagues like prophecy fell short on that regard, since they didn't introduce anything to strengthen rares or provide new rare alternatives.

And it applies to legacy league as well. Mostly because we have eternal orbs available on top of higher ilvl areas than the old mirrorables. The old mirror service will be dethroned when the league ends. But that doesn't solve mirror servicing.

As long as a league applies something new to rares, your objective is complete.

Afaik there has been no mirror worthy essence crafts.

All I'm saying is that your view that mirrors are a ticket to print money is quite laughable in Leagues but on Standard this should be the case as it's actually something hard to achieve in the first place. Risks should have Rewards as what's the point of it all then. Also you should realise if you have ever mirrored something before than you absolutely know that having a copy of something is far from actually having the item itself in terms of utility and permanence of the socket colours and unable to recraft master mods (cast speed/block instead of Damage over time mod on shields)

"

StDrakeX a écrit :

Afaik there has been no mirror worthy essence crafts.

All I'm saying is that your view that mirrors are a ticket to print money is quite laughable in Leagues but on Standard this should be the case as it's actually something hard to achieve in the first place. Risks should have Rewards as what's the point of it all then. Also you should realise if you have ever mirrored something before than you absolutely know that having a copy of something is far from actually having the item itself in terms of utility and permanence of the socket colours and unable to recraft master mods (cast speed/block instead of Damage over time mod on shields)

I've seen like 2 mirror worthy essence crafts this league alone.

Both of them hubris circlets sadly. One with the ele dmg sockets mod and one with the less mana reserved.

I'm pretty sure I'll have to wait a lot more until I get to see a mirror worthy chaos damage ring though or the rare equivalent of maligaro's virtuosity. Much harder slots to roll well.

The thing with the sockets, ok, it's valid, but has already been covered earlier. Those mirror services also stagnate build diversity since a person knows: Only this build has an uber item available for me.

So the person buying a copy is already playing a build that the base is made for.

Rarity of the eternal orb could also be changed to be rarer, but I do think that's it's more gratifying for people to work towards their uber item than rolling a build which they know will clear everything and work towards a mirrored copy.

And as for pouring into standard new mirrored gear. Well, that kinda always applies due to the meta shifting. A mirror worthy amulet of 2013 is not the same as right now with HoWA builds wanting different stats. And the best amulet of today might disappear in obscurity tomorrow. Although weapons are a bit more stable, admittedly.