The secret to balancing evasion

@Moosifer: I'm not snot understanding how dangerous elemental damage is. Everyone overestimates how much damage difference there is between having Elemental Adaptation and not.

EA@75cap is an 8% reduction in damage taken.

EA@78cap is a 9% reduction in damage taken.

EA@84Cap is a 13% reduction in damage taken.

And for the values requiring using a pot...

EA@88cap is a 17% reduction in damage taken.

EA@94cap is a 33% reduction in damage taken.

Last I checked healing pots are the rage, but if you compare the actual damage taken form a 14k base damage hit (that's an elementally enhanced vaal slam)

@75: 3500 vs 3080
@78: 3080 vs 2800
@84: 2240 vs 1960
@88: 1680 vs 1400
@94: 640 vs 560

If you have the resists to reduce damage whether you have elemental adaptation or not is basically a non-issue, and the relative contribution of EA is ALSO a non-issue. Right now excepting ridiculously high max resist bonuses PA is actually better than EA at reducing damage taken over time, and an attack that would blow through 10-20% lower HP than a str character would be leaving said str character at... well maximum 10% of tehir life total and ready to be picked off.

EA used to be an awesome thing that Ev characters were missing out on. Now it's a little perk that the Str area gets because apparently all the good stuff belongs there.

You don't give an inch, and I'll say you're good with the numbers but go play man. Take a pure evasion build into high level maps and report back on how it feels. In HC there's no joy to the idea over the long term you make out. If evasion goes sour, even one time in the wrong situation it means all that effort gone.

You might pick off my little additional points but you haven't dismissed the main issue that a large life pool is vastly more important to an evasion user than it is to an armor user, yet evasion doesn't have the ability to achieve the same amount.

Theorycraft all you want but this is why people don't trust evasion in HC.

The only solution to fix Evasion is kick IR. Remove MMO Oneshot Mechanics and cap reduce at 50%.
It's entirely stupid to have a system where you are forced to be at 95% reduce to survive physical hits and as evasion character it means certain death.

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Moosifer a écrit :

You don't give an inch, and I'll say you're good with the numbers but go play man. Take a pure evasion build into high level maps and report back on how it feels. In HC there's no joy to the idea over the long term you make out. If evasion goes sour, even one time in the wrong situation it means all that effort gone.

You might pick off my little additional points but you haven't dismissed the main issue that a large life pool is vastly more important to an evasion user than it is to an armor user, yet evasion doesn't have the ability to achieve the same amount.

Theorycraft all you want but this is why people don't trust evasion in HC.

The problem wit ha "pure evasion build" is the moment you start using a defense emchanic that isn't evasion, and I've been down this road" people will start arguing that you're not longer an evasion build. Oh you pop a granit to soak 500 damage off of Kole's hits? You're not evasion. You got 5 endurance charges? No way you're an evasion build? Acrobatics? Nope that's definitely not evasion.

Without a full spectrum of numbers there's no way to determine an actual damage spread on enemies and therefore determine a favored defense over one or the other in practice. Sure there's (anecdotal) evidence, but there's no rigorous testing. The only people who would bother doing so would rather run a low-life ES build or stack HP because it's got a lower gearcheck bar.

And that's all any of it is. A gearcheck bar.

Well sort of.

People say it's not pure evasion if you're using granites, end charges, and acro because armor uses these to function (besides acro ofc). If they use the same supplementary things what's the point of going with the one that might result in being one shot as it doesn't have as high DR? It doesn't benefit as much from granite flasks. It can't have as many end charges. Molten shell doesn't scale as well. Then acro ruins most of these things effectiveness.

On top of that adding things to make evasion more effective don't really matter too much. These new jade flasks are probably going to mostly be used by IR users rather than evasion, at least they'll be more important to IR users. Acro is nice but outside of PVP it really isn't that great if you have good evasion gear so it ends up mostly ruining granites and molten shell. An there's no charge that equals end charges.

Personally rather than these jade flasks I'd like something that introduces glancing blow. Something similar to the lucky/unlucky system in place now. When using the pot, if attack is evaded, everything happens as should, if hit, 50% chance to take X% less damage, 50% chance to take full damage. Or maybe have it if hit damage in converted into a bleed, similar to puncture but can't be removed until damage has completed.

I keep inviting you. I'll even donate a 75+ map for when you feel comfortable to run it, cheat and run it blue/white for all I care. You have the number game down well but you lack the first hand experience behind these numbers. For a while I would stop everything and spend a week theorycrafting a build, lvl/respec a toon into it expecting OP results only to find out things that made sense on paper were utter garbage in practice.

I'm pretty sure if you did all the things you're saying, with 3-4k life, you'd find the end game very sporadic. Some maps you'll feel like you're taking literally no damage, other maps your pots are constantly empty and you feel 20 levels below the content.

"

Moosifer a écrit :

You don't give an inch, and I'll say you're good with the numbers but go play man. Take a pure evasion build into high level maps and report back on how it feels. In HC there's no joy to the idea over the long term you make out. If evasion goes sour, even one time in the wrong situation it means all that effort gone.

You might pick off my little additional points but you haven't dismissed the main issue that a large life pool is vastly more important to an evasion user than it is to an armor user, yet evasion doesn't have the ability to achieve the same amount.

Theorycraft all you want but this is why people don't trust evasion in HC.

I don't even think we mentioned the fact that physical based spells utterly destroy evasion characters.

but it's so uncommon it's not fair to bring up as a main issue.

It is valid but they are mostly from bosses so armor users struggle against them too.

"

Moosifer a écrit :

but it's so uncommon it's not fair to bring up as a main issue.

It is valid but they are mostly from bosses so armor users struggle against them too.

Yeah but remember armor characters can reduce the amount of damage they do to the point where they don't get stunned between granite/endurance charges/gear/etc.


Evasion characters don't, so if they get hit by EK from the rogue exile on a map for example, they get stunned and likely die to the second EK. It's a huge deal remember. I didn't even mention that Armor Characters can also Enfeeble for even less damage per hit, so they are likely to never get stunned while an evasion character even with enfeeble is highly likely to get stunned vs hard hitting things like EK, big crits, etc.


And since we're talking strictly from a HC perspective, we have to take into account of everything that could possibly kill you.

Hi

Evasion is a chance to not get hit and if your hit it rerolls to lower damage from critical while armour promotes constant reliable DR at the cost of always being hit and no critical dam mitigational chance.

If you play evasion stack: life,resists, acrobatics/phs, ondars guile, high block and optional: herbalism for quick flasks.

If you play armour stack: life,resists, armour

I notice that more often then not the evasion character doesn't worry about gear as much as passives while the armour oriented character needs to worry about getting good gear, using flasks,using endurance charges, etc.. If my character used a 500+ def chest plate instead of it being evasion at lvl 79 they would get creamed but my character doesn't.

Evasion users also tend to be faster in general since they have more access to mvmt nodes and attack speed nodes, these attributes are hard to calculate in combat sicne they mostly revolve around,lol, more chance.

cheers

Actually relative gains in DR from Granites are in favor of Ev, just like relative gain of Evade from Jades are in favor of Ar. Admittedly Acro throws a spanner in the works at times, but generally splashing a small amount of a second defense type is better than increasing your current (except in certain situations, ie Kole).

A "perfect" granite on an Acrobat provides 3000 armour against the average damage IIRC of roughly 700 for "trash" granting 26% damage reduction, an equivalent Jade can't really compare (though it is quite effective). A 12% eCharge Acrobat would then have 38% static DR against trash. It may not be the 90% of an Armour character, but that armour character isn't going to derive any DR from a granite at all except against harder hitting enemies.

And against harder hitting enemies it's still +280 flat damage reduction for the Ev. Not something to sneeze at, since it's "separate" from eCharges at that point.