[3.8] Shaper = Stunned, Tidebreaker Heavy Strike Stunner Build

Dang, what a beast !

First time I did the three first Labs this early, specially in a new league. Did normal at level 32, cruel at 52, and merciless at 65 with no problem at all. Granted I had some powerful leveling uniques, and those melee uniques are quite insane, this build is already very fun. (I used Goldrim and a Tabula with all gems, Wideswing, then Blood Reaper)

Also less severe on the FPS than any other build I tried, it is very helpful for me in this performance killing league. My tiny 1030 can't handle the truth unfortunately, but this Heavy Striker may be the solution for now.

I used (and am still using) the first mana leech node on the road to Vaal Pact, which proved to be extremely useful, I never had mana problem. Also Ancestral Call + Impact is very very good for clearing, and super nice to use, sweet synergy there.

Thanks for the great build and very constant and helpful comments brightwaha, you rocks !
https://www.youtube.com/user/PeipeMasta
"
Lauicus a écrit :
Spoiler
Forgive for spamming your forum thread :)

After some contemplating about my choice for the Berserker version I came up with a question and a remark about the build in 3.1.0.

First the question: Is, after the changes to reflect and Brutal Fervour, the Slayer still the preferred class? Before, the 50% reduced reflected damage taken from Headsman and the 10% increased leech cap would definitely have me choose the Slayer, but now the extra damage (and thus extra Stun power) shifted the balance to the Berserker for me.

The onslaught and free splash from the Slayer look nice, but with the extra damage from the Berserker I believe taking out an extra damage support for Melee Splash still leaves us with more than enough dps to clear maps fast (PoB indicates around 200k dmg with Heavy Strike - Melee Physical - Ruthless - Multistrike - Ancestral Call - Melee Splash, without potions and frenzy charges. In my experience, this should be enough considering how weak trash mobs are. So, that leaves imho the 20% culling which I surely will miss deerly, but overall that seems the only real advantage of the Slayer now.

Easy access to the new Vaal Pact also counts as a pro for the Slayer, but do we really need it? And what about the lack of regen when running Blood Rage? And Lab running? Regen makes Lab running so much more comfortable.

Also, the Berserker has much earlier access to Resolute Technique, which is a huge QoL early on during leveling. 10% increased damage taken is obviously the downside of the Berserker, but that is partially mitigated by the higher life pool and Rite of Ruin. Rite of Ruin doesn't count in fights against single big bosses, but most of their skills can't be tanked anyway or are oneshots. Does the double leech from Vaal Pact enables us to tank for instance the stone rain from the Minotaur? I dunno since I always used the old Vaal Pact for that kind of endgame encounters.

I'd love to hear your thoughts about this.

My remark is about the flasks in your PoB setups. I noticed the flasks are the legacy versions, which are nice on Standard (they hugely upped the dps of my Moonflurry after Harbinger ended), but they give some false impressions to ppl looking for a build to play in the league.

Edit: Maybe you could add a "3.1.0 Berserker-Slayer Pro-Con" section in the build guide. Imho the depth of the guide certainly justifies the effort.


You have been talking about Headsman, Impact and Brutal Fervour, but imo what makes Slayer an appealing choice is Endless Hunger. If you really think about this build, this build has 0 layers of defense. Besides having a large life pool, we rely on stunning enemies and we rely on our leech.

Spoiler
What happens a lot is that, when you're a Berserker taking a severe hit from some source and down from 100% life to 40%, you need to rebuild your leech instances because when you were at 100% life, you can't maintain leech instances. Your first attack will add 2% max life to your leech rate, which is only 10% of your leech cap; then you attack a second time, a third time... you're still not leeching at a desirable rate. And you may just die right at the spot.

If you were playing as Slayer, then it will take just 1 second for you to recover to your full life. Let's say you were hit again, then it's just a matter of another second to go back to full life. This is true even if you Leap Slam away right after taking damage, because your leech instances persist when you're at full life.

So on paper, life recovery rate without counting Soul of Arakaali is 25% for Berserker(5% from regen) and 40% for Slayer(20% leech * 2 from Vaal Pact), but what Berserker actually gets is far less than 25% in many situations. Berserker also just cannot pick Vaal Pact because 1. leech not as reliable; 2. Damage on Full Life won't work.

About dps output from both classes, I think if you try to trigger your Headsman with the Writhing Jar, and count the 20% culling, the dps difference is not very huge. Also, the AOE bonuses that Slayer has definitely helps with map clearing.

Back in 3.0, I was running a lot of shaped Shore with max sextants and Beyond Zana mod, and my own experience with Berserker and Slayer were very different. I was trying to level both of them from lvl 92 to lvl 94, and the experience was so different. I could easily play my Slayer while watching stream, or late in the night when I'm only half-conscious; I only experienced a couple of rips with my Slayer. With my Berserker, the chances to rip were just much higher. It was partially due to reflect mobs, but also from high damage Beyond mobs or just anything. I ended up with a habit of not watching stream while mapping with my Berserker, and I think that justifies the difference a lot. Berserker does feel a little faster while mapping.

After all, I have not fully experienced new gameplay, and I don't want to make any firm conclusion before that happens. I think both are very valid choices and it's likely just a matter of preference.

About the Minotaur stone circle, I always just stand inside the stone circle to fight Minotaur. I usually just stand still for the whole fight if I can, to avoid him casting Burrow and potentially one shot me. Previously, of course we cannot face tank the damage from the stone circle without flasks. Now Slayer might be able to do so with the new Vaal Pact, but I am not very sure.

The legacy flasks in PoB were just the ones I was carrying. I understand that it can be confusing so I think I will put an extra sentence or two below the link to tell people of those legacy flasks.

Dernière édition par brightwaha, le 15 déc. 2017 12:33:38
"
DjParagon a écrit :
Dang, what a beast !

First time I did the three first Labs this early, specially in a new league. Did normal at level 32, cruel at 52, and merciless at 65 with no problem at all. Granted I had some powerful leveling uniques, and those melee uniques are quite insane, this build is already very fun. (I used Goldrim and a Tabula with all gems, Wideswing, then Blood Reaper)

Also less severe on the FPS than any other build I tried, it is very helpful for me in this performance killing league. My tiny 1030 can't handle the truth unfortunately, but this Heavy Striker may be the solution for now.

I used (and am still using) the first mana leech node on the road to Vaal Pact, which proved to be extremely useful, I never had mana problem. Also Ancestral Call + Impact is very very good for clearing, and super nice to use, sweet synergy there.

Thanks for the great build and very constant and helpful comments brightwaha, you rocks !


Yes, Heavy Strike is maybe the most graphics-card friendly skill in the whole game :D

I think besides a slightly different weapon swing animation and sound effect, Heavy Strike is the only skill in the game without much visual effect at all. Sometimes I hope GGG announces a poll for next skill mtx, so we can troll them and vote for Heavy Strike, then watch their designers suffer from loss of brain cells. (Similar to Wisp Arcana in Dota 2)

And yes, (back to topic), splashing Heavy Strike + Ancestral Call does feel very very nice, the more I use it, the more I like it. Personally I would definitely use this over Sunder.
Spoiler
"
brightwaha a écrit :
"
Lauicus a écrit :
Spoiler
Forgive for spamming your forum thread :)

After some contemplating about my choice for the Berserker version I came up with a question and a remark about the build in 3.1.0.

First the question: Is, after the changes to reflect and Brutal Fervour, the Slayer still the preferred class? Before, the 50% reduced reflected damage taken from Headsman and the 10% increased leech cap would definitely have me choose the Slayer, but now the extra damage (and thus extra Stun power) shifted the balance to the Berserker for me.

The onslaught and free splash from the Slayer look nice, but with the extra damage from the Berserker I believe taking out an extra damage support for Melee Splash still leaves us with more than enough dps to clear maps fast (PoB indicates around 200k dmg with Heavy Strike - Melee Physical - Ruthless - Multistrike - Ancestral Call - Melee Splash, without potions and frenzy charges. In my experience, this should be enough considering how weak trash mobs are. So, that leaves imho the 20% culling which I surely will miss deerly, but overall that seems the only real advantage of the Slayer now.

Easy access to the new Vaal Pact also counts as a pro for the Slayer, but do we really need it? And what about the lack of regen when running Blood Rage? And Lab running? Regen makes Lab running so much more comfortable.

Also, the Berserker has much earlier access to Resolute Technique, which is a huge QoL early on during leveling. 10% increased damage taken is obviously the downside of the Berserker, but that is partially mitigated by the higher life pool and Rite of Ruin. Rite of Ruin doesn't count in fights against single big bosses, but most of their skills can't be tanked anyway or are oneshots. Does the double leech from Vaal Pact enables us to tank for instance the stone rain from the Minotaur? I dunno since I always used the old Vaal Pact for that kind of endgame encounters.

I'd love to hear your thoughts about this.

My remark is about the flasks in your PoB setups. I noticed the flasks are the legacy versions, which are nice on Standard (they hugely upped the dps of my Moonflurry after Harbinger ended), but they give some false impressions to ppl looking for a build to play in the league.

Edit: Maybe you could add a "3.1.0 Berserker-Slayer Pro-Con" section in the build guide. Imho the depth of the guide certainly justifies the effort.


You have been talking about Headsman, Impact and Brutal Fervour, but imo what makes Slayer an appealing choice is Endless Hunger. If you really think about this build, this build has 0 layers of defense. Besides having a large life pool, we rely on stunning enemies and we rely on our leech.

Spoiler
What happens a lot is that, when you're a Berserker taking a severe hit from some source and down from 100% life to 40%, you need to rebuild your leech instances because when you were at 100% life, you can't maintain leech instances. Your first attack will add 2% max life to your leech rate, which is only 10% of your leech cap; then you attack a second time, a third time... you're still not leeching at a desirable rate. And you may just die right at the spot.

If you were playing as Slayer, then it will take just 1 second for you to recover to your full life. Let's say you were hit again, then it's just a matter of another second to go back to full life. This is true even if you Leap Slam away right after taking damage, because your leech instances persist when you're at full life.

So on paper, life recovery rate without counting Soul of Arakaali is 25% for Berserker(5% from regen) and 40% for Slayer(20% leech * 2 from Vaal Pact), but what Berserker actually gets is far less than 25% in many situations. Berserker also just cannot pick Vaal Pact because 1. leech not as reliable; 2. Damage on Full Life won't work.

About dps output from both classes, I think if you try to trigger your Headsman with the Writhing Jar, and count the 20% culling, the dps difference is not very huge. Also, the AOE bonuses that Slayer has definitely helps with map clearing.

Back in 3.0, I was running a lot of shaped Shore with max sextants and Beyond Zana mod, and my own experience with Berserker and Slayer were very different. I was trying to level both of them from lvl 92 to lvl 94, and the experience was so different. I could easily play my Slayer while watching stream, or late in the night when I'm only half-conscious; I only experienced a couple of rips with my Slayer. With my Berserker, the chances to rip were just much higher. It was partially due to reflect mobs, but also from high damage Beyond mobs or just anything. I ended up with a habit of not watching stream while mapping with my Berserker, and I think that justifies the difference a lot. Berserker does feel a little faster while mapping.

After all, I have not fully experienced new gameplay, and I don't want to make any firm conclusion before that happens. I think both are very valid choices and it's likely just a matter of preference.

About the Minotaur stone circle, I always just stand inside the stone circle to fight Minotaur. I usually just stand still for the whole fight if I can, to avoid him casting Burrow and potentially one shot me. Previously, of course we cannot face tank the damage from the stone circle without flasks. Now Slayer might be able to do so with the new Vaal Pact, but I am not very sure.

The legacy flasks in PoB were just the ones I was carrying. I understand that it can be confusing so I think I will put an extra sentence or two below the link to tell people of those legacy flasks.



Well... that's something to think about and experiment with. Never played a Slayer (or any other non-instaleech character before), and it looks like I underestimated the power of Endless Hunger. All I know is keep killing/leeching and live, or stop killing/leeching and die (oneshots excepted).
Dernière édition par Lauicus, le 15 déc. 2017 18:32:57
To enable bloodlust, Maim + Ancestral Warchief is enough or i have to link Chance to bleed?
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HunterMoon a écrit :
To enable bloodlust, Maim + Ancestral Warchief is enough or i have to link Chance to bleed?


Chance to Bleed support is totally optional as long as you get 25% bleed chance from the Bloody Bludgeon wheel.
Reserved
In your PoB link your DPS without Flask is 479K and with Flask is 935K. I managed to get flasks, and check my dps with flask and without them.

My DPS without Flasks => 286K

Spoiler


My DPS with Flasks => 515K

Spoiler


I check dps with these 20/20 gems => Heavy Strike + Melee Physical Damage + Ruthless + Bloodlust + Damage on Full Life + Maim. Flasks which i check my dps are same as you.

It is a huge difference between mine and you, i know my rings and amulet are shit right now, also there are 2 open jewel slots in tree i have to get, but why? I have no idea how to improve dps?
"
HunterMoon a écrit :
In your PoB link your DPS without Flask is 479K and with Flask is 935K. I managed to get flasks, and check my dps with flask and without them.

My DPS without Flasks => 286K

Spoiler


My DPS with Flasks => 515K

Spoiler


I check dps with these 20/20 gems => Heavy Strike + Melee Physical Damage + Ruthless + Bloodlust + Damage on Full Life + Maim. Flasks which i check my dps are same as you.

It is a huge difference between mine and you, i know my rings and amulet are shit right now, also there are 2 open jewel slots in tree i have to get, but why? I have no idea how to improve dps?


I cannot tell for sure but I believe you haven't checked "at full life" option so you are missing the 50% damage.
"
brightwaha a écrit :

I cannot tell for sure but I believe you haven't checked "at full life" option so you are missing the 50% damage.


Yeh you are right, i forgot about that.
So my DPS with no flask is 423K and with flasks 761K. I still missing +1 frenzy charge on boot and curse on gloves.

BTW what is maximum hp you can get with slayer?

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