PoE not casual friendly enough

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PleiadesBlackstar a écrit :

This game does not need to be more casual friendly in the slightest. What it needs to be is beginner friendly.

Potato, potato.

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I wouldn't mind the game getting a tip screen at the start "Since you are a (insert character here), these skills are ideal for you right now. X skill gets stronger with y supports, z skill with w supports, etc that give them idea of where to start testing things out themselves. Similar in game tips to start a tree would be nice too.

Don't make them super intrusive and forceful but make the prevalent.

I would be fine with that idea too, although that's a much slower approach. That would really emphasize the "sandbox class maker" aspect of the game over the ARPG part.

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Reinhart a écrit :

One part of the game I truly love is that it DOESNT got cutscenes. It is absolutely not worth the time and effort. It takes you right out of the gameplay experience. And it doesn't add anything meaningful to the gameplay itself (you know the core of a game).

To put it blunt: cutscenes are solely for those players who want to get the game's lore spoonfed.

You, my friend, are a good example of a hardcore gamer. You don't need cutscenes to feel immersed, so feel free to skip them :). Games are nothing more than interactive stories + puzzles + competition. I think there is an epic, satisfying feel to completing a challenging puzzle (boss) and then being rewarded with a cutscene. It reminds you that you are still playing through a story.

Oh, and @grepman, following someone else's strategy guide is mimicking their mastery, piggybacking off their hard work. Most games would be "too easy" if you follow a strategy guide, with rare exception. Thanks for your opinion about not wanting the game to grow, hoping that it stays small and niche. Personally, I think it would be better if it had layers, appealing to hardcore and casual players at different times for different reasons.

@HippieRonin I don't know how lazy you are (no offense) but can't you just search for a build online and follow that? There are tonnes of builds and buildguides online that you can go for. That would be the same as having a preset class and build as casual. Only difference is that you have to tab out too look at it every now and then.

I think the OP points at a real problem but does not present an ideal solution.

What I'd do if I was GGG - which, again, might not be the best solution - is introduce a recommendation feature for the passive tree. Unless you turn it off in the options menu, going to the passive tree will show recommended allocations for your point(s); the UI would make it clear this is a recommendation and you still have choice, but following it would give you a solid, archetypal build for your class. Eventually, choice of Ascendancy would lead to different recommendations (and no particular Ascendancy or Ascendancy passives would ever be recommended; recommendations are base Passive Tree only). Even if turned off in options, a hotkey would display recommendations when held.

I feel this better solves the problem because it doesn't eliminate choice, it just reduces it to a dichotomy: follow advice, or stray from it. This makes it simpler but not without meaningful choice.

Again, I think this is a real problem, and deserves a solution even if it's not mine. Over 50% of PoE gamers quit the game before Normal Brutus (source: Chris Wilson). That's indicative of a huge failure of PoE to hook new players, and the game needs to take new players far more seriously than it currently does. How it does this is debatable; that it should, isn't.

As far as cutscenes go, I really think those are waste of money. I don't have any strong opinion on parties, although I strongly suspect most players don't either; most players play single-player except for maybe some trades.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

I think the OP points at a real problem but does not present an ideal solution.

What I'd do if I was GGG - which, again, might not be the best solution - is introduce a recommendation feature for the passive tree. Unless you turn it off in the options menu, going to the passive tree will show recommended allocations for your point(s); the UI would make it clear this is a recommendation and you still have choice, but following it would give you a solid, archetypal build for your class. Eventually, choice of Ascendancy would lead to different recommendations (and no particular Ascendancy or Ascendancy passives would ever be recommended; recommendations are base Passive Tree only). Even if turned off in options, a hotkey would display recommendations when held.

I feel this better solves the problem because it doesn't eliminate choice, it just reduces it to a dichotomy: follow advice, or stray from it. This makes it simpler but not without meaningful choice.

It would be a poor solution to suggest to a new player what passives to choose without making an assumption on relevant gear and active skills which would have a larger impact. Meaning the player needing this tutorial probably wouldn't be able put their gear/skills in proper context with the suggested passives, especially with some of the more esoteric relationships those passives have.

It would probably be more beneficial to have the tutorial showcase deficiencies in various significant stats that should be sought after based on a small number of archetypal character choices they would have chosen from at the very beginning of character creation, even suggesting a class and basic set of active skills based on their choice, and then have the accompanying passive suggestions with that.

But then our little tutorial has become quite bewildering in and of itself. I watched kripp videos to get up to speed so maybe a simple in game questionnaire asking the new player how experienced with arpgs/PoE they are with links to the appropriate videos would suffice.

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PleiadesBlackstar a écrit :

There are too many gem and passive options for people going in blind. I wouldn't mind the game getting a tip screen at the start "Since you are a (insert character here), these skills are ideal for you right now. X skill gets stronger with y supports, z skill with w supports, etc that give them idea of where to start testing things out themselves. Similar in game tips to start a tree would be nice too.

Don't make them super intrusive and forceful but make the prevalent.

That is what quest reward are for, right ???
That is exactly what quest rewards are for.

Unfortunately, we have most gem being sold very early in the game for peanuts by vendors now ...


Yes for the cut scenes.

Hell no for assisted wraeclast, wraeclast is supposed to be unforgiving.

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Fruz a écrit :

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PleiadesBlackstar a écrit :

There are too many gem and passive options for people going in blind. I wouldn't mind the game getting a tip screen at the start "Since you are a (insert character here), these skills are ideal for you right now. X skill gets stronger with y supports, z skill with w supports, etc that give them idea of where to start testing things out themselves. Similar in game tips to start a tree would be nice too.

Don't make them super intrusive and forceful but make the prevalent.

That is what quest reward are for, right ???
That is exactly what quest rewards are for.

Unfortunately, we have most gem being sold very early in the game for peanuts by vendors now ...


Yes for the cut scenes.

Hell no for assisted wraeclast, wraeclast is supposed to be unforgiving.

Wraeclast should be unforgiving yes, but the game PoE shouldn't scare away perfectly capable players because the choices are so daunting.

I don't care if it is links to official/unofficial compiled information to get a new player started, there should be something that prevents mishaps like what happened with my friends and other people I have heard of such as that quote from CW of pre brutus quitters. That does not bode well for player retention at all.

Secondly, I know that is what quest rewards do but new players don't. When I first started in open beta I hopped gems every time I got choices because I assumed there was some sort of damage progression at first. That was part of why my first character was personally f'ed up. I was trying to get through Act2 merciless with a Sweep with who knows what supports and heavy strike wondering why later gems weren't better and trying to get it to work with a completely f'ed tree.

But I think we need a halfway between handholding a build design and a free for all choose your own adventure. For example, take one of the friends that quit right away. I can assume he would have gone marauder first character and he would want to try ground slam after Hillock if he had continued. Some short but descriptive tip window could point out in more professional manner "Hey! You chose ground slam, if you notice the tags: attack, aoe, melee, these denote what mods on gear, what support gems and what passives will help this attack grow."

As for the first skill point, a similar short text could pop up and point out 2 bigger nodes near the character start "The Marauder (or insert character here) area typically specializes in physical attack damage and specifically, 2 handed weapons. As well, the marauder has easiest access to Armour and life as their main damage mitigation and survivability. Don't neglect either offence or defense in your tree or you may learn how harsh Wraeclast can truly be."

After that nothing. No help with any other gems, no help with passives or gem choices in the slightest. What can happen is that their first time trying a new character type that it will do the same thing to allow them to learn how each class differs from another in what would be easiest for your first build of that character to attempt. This could also be turned off in the options at any time if somebody did wish to go blind completely or after their first character.

If something like this were present, I would probably have learned the game mechanics a lot sooner. Instead, I failed my first character and have almost literally always followed a build guide out of fear I would screw up again due to not understanding shit. Now it is taking me 4 years to break out of my shell and spend a chunk of my playtime finally understanding the mechanics more than a small basic knowledge of resists and stacking ehp.

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

I think the OP points at a real problem but does not present an ideal solution.

What I'd do if I was GGG - which, again, might not be the best solution - is introduce a recommendation feature for the passive tree. Unless you turn it off in the options menu, going to the passive tree will show recommended allocations for your point(s); the UI would make it clear this is a recommendation and you still have choice, but following it would give you a solid, archetypal build for your class. Eventually, choice of Ascendancy would lead to different recommendations (and no particular Ascendancy or Ascendancy passives would ever be recommended; recommendations are base Passive Tree only). Even if turned off in options, a hotkey would display recommendations when held.

I feel this better solves the problem because it doesn't eliminate choice, it just reduces it to a dichotomy: follow advice, or stray from it. This makes it simpler but not without meaningful choice.

It would be a poor solution to suggest to a new player what passives to choose without making an assumption on relevant gear and active skills which would have a larger impact. Meaning the player needing this tutorial probably wouldn't be able put their gear/skills in proper context with the suggested passives, especially with some of the more esoteric relationships those passives have.

It would probably be more beneficial to have the tutorial showcase deficiencies in various significant stats that should be sought after based on a small number of archetypal character choices they would have chosen from at the very beginning of character creation, even suggesting a class and basic set of active skills based on their choice, and then have the accompanying passive suggestions with that.

But then our little tutorial has become quite bewildering in and of itself. I watched kripp videos to get up to speed so maybe a simple in game questionnaire asking the new player how experienced with arpgs/PoE they are with links to the appropriate videos would suffice.

I think you're splitting hairs.

Ideally I'd want the recommendations to be based on your current character; it looks at your current gear, it reduces offense and defense to a single combined score via some formula, then it plans out whatever will make that score highest in the next 20 passive points or so.

But, we should be willing to settle for far, far less than ideal here. A single recommended build which has every Marauder cracking heads with 2H maces would be better than the absolute lack of non-web guidance presently. I think we could do better than that, but right now it is worse than that.

But you guys are assuming new players are willing to read a goddamn encyclopedia throughly for the right to play the game. No. That's not normal. Demanding research to try a game is just nuts.

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PleiadesBlackstar a écrit :

「...」

I guess I have have developed a bit more.
Basically, to stay really consistent, the exile needs to learn from the elements surrounding him.
That makes 2 choices :
- trying something
- being taugth somethings, from NPC maybe, or from writings, something like that

pre-selected anything is hand-holding however.



Some information could pop from some already there NPC, couple of basic things could definitely be there I think.
Some things can be done, I agree with that.
It does not need to be a lot to be a real good start imho, like Tarkleigh could explain briefly how the keywords on gems work.

About the passive tree thing you proposed ... Idk, I'd rather have something explained "lore-like" tbh.

Saying there needs to be lore for recommended passives getting a highlight is like saying there needs to be lore for loot filters. No; both are clearly UI overlays, not part of the actual game world. All you need is an option to turn it the labels off for a moment, if desired.

Plus, adding an NPC means more forced NPC dialogue. Yes, you'd have to force it. Better to just save time.

Interesting ideas. My opinion is that attempting any kind of tutorial on how to properly build a character would just overwhelm people anyway. You have to be seriously motivated to tackle learning that, which means you're already the type to go to the forums and read up on builds, ask questions in Global Chat, and figure things out for yourself. I've probably put a good 50 hours in this game this season and I still feel like a newb. There is just so much to this game. I don't know what debuffs are on me 90% of the time. I don't understand how corrupted blood works or know why I'm bleeding half the time. I haven't figured out a lot of the corrupted bloodlines or what mods like "Otherwordly" mean. I'm running T5 maps now and I have no idea what "Elemental Equilibrium" means. Every unique I've ever found that looked decent turned out to sell for less than one Chaos (I just don't get it)... I haven't even touched crafting yet, and I am already constantly looking things up on the wiki and asking questions in chat. It would take a damn textbook to teach this game.

So yeah, new players want nothing to do with the passive tree. They want to progress through the story and grow stronger without thinking. They want hours of uninterrupted play before getting to a point where they have to stop and contemplate the components of a balanced build. They need to get attached to the game before they are willing to invest in it.