Pros and cons of a casual POE

Edit: Conclusions reached by the end of page 8:

Original post:

There have been a lot of threads about POE being too hard core and a lot of posts defending that. I would like to get a little more clarity on this topic, as I'm undecided on the issue. So let's do a thought experiment:

Imagine GGG introduces a second version of POE (a separate league, or a setting or other servers, the how probably doesn't matter) which caters to more casual gamers. Let's call it cPOE. It has higher drop rates, the RNG is less brutal and some of the really hard bosses are nerfed. Of course the simplifications aren't so strong to make it a trivial game, but after a year's playing, a casual gamer can assume to have some top gear and a good chance to defeat the biggest monster there is.

What would happen? Would this be good or bad? Are there suggestions to mitigate the worst of the bad effects?

Please stay on topic, don't discuss the virtues of game X vs game Y (or POE). Please also don't post non-info, such as "That would make POE like game X", because this does not explain what is good or bad about that.
For the sake of this thread, let's also assume cPOE and POE have no glaring technical difficulties. So please no posts about desync or other such hassles.
I do enjoy playing POE, so this is not a plea for such a game, but maybe some interesting insights come from this thread.

My thoughts:

1. cPOE would have significantly more market appeal, because most (not all, don't go there) people prefer higher rewards for the same effort. Also, many people just don't have the time to spend more effort. This is good for GGG, as it would generate more money.

2. cPOE would directly compete with POE, eroding POE's market. This might lead to the demise of POE, as the effort required to maintain it might be too high for the remaining number of players. That would definitely be a bad thing, because POE obviously fills a need for some hard core gamers and also gains a certain nimbus this way, which is worth money in the industry.

3. cPOE would be absolutely hated by fans of POE, or at least its players ridiculed by POE players. Dunno if that is a disadvantage or not. Don't care, actually, as enjoyment is in the eyes of the beholder :)

4. cPOE would be missing the thrill of gaining a godly item. Yes, in other games I am VERY happy when a cool unique drops or a gamble yields top results. But I've never before felt the joy of finding a great item like I did in POE when a really build-enabling item dropped. This has only happened twice to me, but man, it felt great.

5. cPOE would be great to play for an hour or two if you don't have lots of time. You'd still have (the illusion of?) progress. On the other hand, it would also be easier to stop playing after an hour or two.

I'm sure GGG has done extensive market research and are following the suggestions and feedback threads quite closely. I would be thrilled to hear their take on this, they've probably got some really insightful answers from their own discussions. Maybe this would help dissatisfied players understand some of the reasons behind what's bothering them. And maybe it would also provoke some cool ideas for changes?

Happy hunting,
Treffnixe

/Edit:
There were some good suggestions on adding QoL features which would make POE more casual friendly. That is true, and I'd like to see these implemented, but these should be done anyway. I'm trying to collect opinions /arguments for or against an easier POE. Other features are assumed to be the same.

I think a league like "cPoE" would be feasible - it would be up to GGG whether they feel that it goes against their core values.

I'd play in that league...even if they called it the "Wussy-Instant-Gratification League."

I am a casual player by your definition,
only investing some hours a week into the game.

I play PoE the same I'd play cPoE.

The difference would be that I'd be bored by normal difficulty, forcing me to play the game through once to feel at least a bit challenged or even more depending on the amount of catering.

The huge amount of change would lead to GGGs reputation being stained, something they can't really afford in their chosen business model. The whales currently funding the game would jump off and get to the next game, I'd say. There are chances that the new audience would fund the game the same way but it is a risky bet. If I had a company in charge, I wouldn't take it especially if business is running good.


In general I question your idea of cPoE. Your cPoE sounds like a simple watered down version of PoE, not featuring important QoL changes casual players might really want: more control over the UI, a better trading interface, dynamic race scheduling, good gameplay introduction & tutorials and more. All not related to the games difficulty but easing the way into the game by dimensions. That would be my cPoE and it is realistic to approach it and boost sale numbers.

Those changes would open up PoE to the casual audience and grant current players an easier life without changing the ruthless and unfair nature of the game like it is meant to be.

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Treffnix a écrit :

I'm sure GGG has done extensive market research and are following the suggestions and feedback threads quite closely. I would be thrilled to hear their take on this, they've probably got some really insightful answers from their own discussions. Maybe this would help dissatisfied players understand some of the reasons behind what's bothering them. And maybe it would also provoke some cool ideas for changes?

Happy hunting,
Treffnixe

I'm not that sure. GGG often points out that they are making a game they want to play. They clearly want to play a game where it is almost impossible for a casual gamer (read: a person with a job, a life, a family) to reach high end gear and maps.

And I suppose that is OK. The market is there, these people also need something to strive for. And if these people knew that CASUAL GAMERS could enjoy what they're enjoying - using half the time spent, there would be a war.

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Nightmare90 a écrit :

...not featuring important QoL changes...

Those features would be great to have in POE as it is, so I wouldn't count them as a differentiator between the two games.
I'd love them now already, but that's a different topic.

PoE doesn't need an easier setting or league. If there is a problem with the main game being too difficult then they should fix it in the main game and in all leagues. GGG has been taking some steps to do that already by adjusting the unique drop rates.

edit: I am responding to the possibility of an easier, more casual-friendly PoE independent of the current one we have. I cannot envision the two co-existing. This is either/or. -- C

It's too late for PoE1, but I'll say this: it would be good.

And I think GGG...well, no, I know GGG didn't have enough faith in their core product to make certain decisions that would have been better in the long run. One of those is that they equated longevity with hardcore, and hardcore with no-life. And I think they made this decision before TOG was even much more than a trailer, let alone revealed as spectacularly casual-friendly.

As it turned out, PoE is a pretty good game. It does what good ARPGs do: encourage lots of replayability, alternate characters, provide plenty of avenues for item usage, etc etc. And it does that *without* the intense difficulty/hardcore angle. Chris has mentioned before how many players make it to maps, and it's actually a very small percentage.

The hardcore angle of PoE was a good selling point during beta, but again, I feel that was backlash against the direction games have been taken at a broader level, not necessarily a case of 'oooh hardcore ARPG, I've been waiting for this!'...really, it was more 'ooh, a new ARPG that isn't cartoony/Titan Quest/Sacred with an interesting skill system and lots of D2-inspired elements-- I've been waiting for this!'

As we entered Release, a lot of the hardcore players moved on because, well, hardcore players are, I believe, much harder to satisfy than casual. And that's fine: it's good to be demanding. But a casual player, and I certainly am such, is content with far fewer updates provided the core game has plenty of ways to be replayed. And PoE does. To a point.

So instead of capitalising on one of the game's true strengths (its replayability), GGG charged onward, attempting to balance the high-end game, fiddling with maps, new higher-level uniques and the like. Their eye remains firmly on the trading meta-game as well -- a favourite pastime of hardcore participants of any online game. I do not doubt this is all because the most visible and vocal players are almost exclusively high-end; they are hardcore.

Here's the problem: free to play model+no overt/blatant pay-to-win or pay-not-to-utterly-suck requires constant voluntary support. This means keeping people interested, and for whatever reason GGG seems to believe that satisfying the hardcore players means retaining/attracting more financial support (obviously I feel otherwise). Had PoE been a more straightforward buy-to-play product, they could have afforded to make the game easier -- casuals like myself would still be playing years after the so-called hardcore had moved on, but that wouldn't matter: they'd have the money either way.

And I daresay they'd have more casual players, because, well, PoE is too fucking hard for a lot of people.

Free-to-play and overly hardcore: there is no doubt in my mind that the two are entwined.

My hopes for a good, balanced game with a proper difficulty curve and rewarding solo play lie with PoE2.

Until then, I'll keep playing this game... but ultimately I support GGG, not PoE.

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Treffnix a écrit :

I'm sure GGG has done extensive market research

Actually, I don't believe they have, because they are making the game that they envisioned. If a broad market appeal had been the goal, and making as much profit as possible, they would not have made many of the decisions that they have made.

I believe PoE can be played casually just fine. It can also be played competitively, if desired. If you play it casually, you need to adjust your goals appropriately and pick objectives that are realistic. (And there are permanent leagues.)

You don't need to change the game when you can change your perspective and expectations.

Im neither casual or hardcore player. But i love this game still there are problems wich seem to stay in the game forever. I don´t think it´s too hard of itself, but with lags desync and non responding server for brief periods its just not enjoyable enough. Died 4 times in less than 20 minutes to lagspikes or desync or whatever on europe gateway with fine connection (no ISP node over 60ms total of 2% loss while poe node spiked up to 460ms). Loosing around 3 hours of progress in such short time just isn´t fun, especially if you only have 2-5 hours to play.

I would say let us play the POE we know, funny and hard and with really high goals to achieve that will cause you to cry after u spend another 100 fusings for nothing. But optimize it for more stable gameplay.

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Mivo a écrit :

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Treffnix a écrit :

I'm sure GGG has done extensive market research

Actually, I don't believe they have, because they are making the game that they envisioned. If a broad market appeal had been the goal, and making as much profit as possible, they would not have made many of the decisions that they have made.

I believe PoE can be played casually just fine. It can also be played competitively, if desired. If you play it casually, you need to adjust your goals appropriately and pick objectives that are realistic. (And there are permanent leagues.)

You don't need to change the game when you can change your perspective and expectations.

I agree, I don't think they have. And I think, for the PoE they envisioned, that's probably a good thing.

PoE can be played casually until certain difficulty spikes. These are well-documented, and acknowledged by GGG. 'Adjust your goals' sounds a bit too much like 'accept when you're going to suck', even though I've likely used the line before. The biggest problem with that is that we know *most* of the really cool stuff is gated, primarily because in the right/wrong hands, it can be utterly devastating. 6L, for example -- in my hands, it'd be all sorts of whacked-out fun builds. In a min/maxer's hands, it's game-destroying.

...Of course they have to worry more about the latter than the former. And I believe, with this game more than any other, you have to become the latter to attempt the former. In other words, in a way (and this applies to alt art race rewards as well, I think) the allocation of rewards/possibilities are going to people less likely to appreciate it.

I acknowledge that is a massive bitch of a quandary, though.