PoE is punishing, not difficult. Video to clarify the difference.

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Cronk a écrit :

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Fruz a écrit :

rpgs are games that are meant to have no success, and just fail.
See Final Fantasy series as an example ?

right.

what?

Well if you cut a sentence in half, you are prolly gonna miss its meaning of course.

point is : part of what the guy says at the end of the video just applies to arcade game.
Is PoE an arcade game ?

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johnKeys a écrit :

very few things in Path Of Exile are "straight forward", and many are just needlessly and mind-fuckingly tricky with zero in-game information - so new players just tend to say "fuck this" and proceed to just brainlessly copy someone's build.
a game where the main feature is building your character yourself, should be a "little" more clear about which choices are good and which are bad, and in which situations - don't you think?

also, a situation where someone who copied my build without really understanding any game mechanics, is "richer", ranked higher up the ladder, and doing higher maps than me - is very, very possible.
makes sense, doesn't it?

Maybe some more information would benefit the game, however ...
If you consider the player as someone that really just arrives in a world he knows nothing about, and were the few living people are fighting for survival, such a learning process makes sense.

Now, what I would love to see : a combat log.
I don't understand why we can't have one ... that would make us know exactly what happens, wouldn't be a luxury with desyncs and stuff.

Rewatch the Extra Credits video.
1) With the old-school, very difficult games, the difficulty helped stretch the games out further, turning 5 hours of content into 40. In order to sustain its business model, GGG needs to stretch its content, giving players the maximum amount of playtime per content; as an indie studio, they can't afford to keep churning out more maps, as these are costly to create. (Also, really challenging games have high enough skill ceilings to make you feel very special for being exceptionally good at them, something which the video mentions.)
2) The core reason for abandoning the early "punishing" model was to appeal to a broader audience — which implies the smaller audience, players who enjoy being punished. That's right, there are masochists out there. And make no mistake: PoE is designed with masochists in mind.
3) The videos specifically mentions alternatives to triple-A design as a route to experiment with difficulty again. GGG can afford to make a game with masochist appeal because it's an indie studio. What would be suicidal for a major developer (such as Blizzard) can be a good idea for Grinding Gear.
4) The bulk of the advice given in the video assumes opening the game up to a wider audience by avoiding, rather than seeking, punishing behavior towards players.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

4) The bulk of the advice given in the video assumes opening the game up to a wider audience by avoiding, rather than seeking, punishing behavior towards players.

No, the advice given is replace punishment with fair difficulty. Not necessarily to "open to a wider audience" aka "casualizing".

Also, the design principle GGG is following is "difficulty through obscurity". A lot of important info is not released or made readily available, to "make the players figure it out" == artificial extension of game longevity.

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morbo a écrit :

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

4) The bulk of the advice given in the video assumes opening the game up to a wider audience by avoiding, rather than seeking, punishing behavior towards players.

No, the advice given is replace punishment with fair difficulty. Not necessarily to "open to a wider audience" aka "casualizing".

Also, the design principle GGG is following is "difficulty through obscurity". A lot of important info is not released or made readily available, to "make the players figure it out" == artificial extension of game longevity.

Some of what is said in the video really fits for ... arcade games.


"[...], if you demand that the player waits for minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance to the thing they failed at, you have created a game that is punishing, not difficult. And punishing game will never succeed".
BS.
Seriously, this sentence basically states that most RPGs game will never succeed.
This applies for arcade games maybe, not for PoE.

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Fruz a écrit :

Some of what is said in the video really fits for ... arcade games.


"[...], if you demand that the player waits for minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance to the thing they failed at, you have created a game that is punishing, not difficult. And punishing game will never succeed".
BS.
Seriously, this sentence basically states that most RPGs game will never succeed.
This applies for arcade games maybe, not for PoE.

I think that particular advice is geared more for games where failure is intended/likely. While ARPGs purposely discourage death so that piece doesn't apply well here.

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Fruz a écrit :

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morbo a écrit :

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

4) The bulk of the advice given in the video assumes opening the game up to a wider audience by avoiding, rather than seeking, punishing behavior towards players.

No, the advice given is replace punishment with fair difficulty. Not necessarily to "open to a wider audience" aka "casualizing".

Also, the design principle GGG is following is "difficulty through obscurity". A lot of important info is not released or made readily available, to "make the players figure it out" == artificial extension of game longevity.

Some of what is said in the video really fits for ... arcade games.


"[...], if you demand that the player waits for minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance to the thing they failed at, you have created a game that is punishing, not difficult. And punishing game will never succeed".
BS.
Seriously, this sentence basically states that most RPGs game will never succeed.
This applies for arcade games maybe, not for PoE.

There are very good examples of skill in regards to knowledge depth in regards to complexity, DnD is a very good example of such a game.

The problem with PoE, is that the complexity in knowledge based skill is no way as good as games like DnD, either in terms of execution or design.

If you want game that executes skill through knowledge well, you for starters have to all basic rules known. This is what happens in DnD. You also don't need to have arbitrary prejudice towards some principle. As an example, glass cannons are perfectly viable (even in professional play) in DnD, because the creators of DnD didn't arbitrarily say "we don't like glass cannons for some reason, so we won't make them viable". This isn't the same in PoE, the game completely favors non glass cannon design. Note that this doesn't mean glass cannons don't work, it just means that the most successful builds are generally scale from somewhat tanky to very tanky.

There are many other things, in PoE you can make certain decisions that completely trivialise content, such as grouping. In DnD with a good dungeon master (or well thought out campaign), this is basically not going to happen. You can decide to min-max in DnD, but you are definitely going to encounter soom loophole that will massively expose your weakness, where as in PoE min-maxing is pretty much encouraged for endgame viability

So you are right that knowledge based skill is a viable asset for game complexity (and is actually a good design feature in general for aRPG's, D3 is a good example of a game that has close to zero knowledge based skill), however in PoE its just executed really badly for many reasons

..d...don...t ...t..ry cat mario

dat is all.

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1) With the old-school, very difficult games, the difficulty helped stretch the games out further, turning 5 hours of content into 40. In order to sustain its business model, GGG needs to stretch its content, giving players the maximum amount of playtime per content; as an indie studio, they can't afford to keep churning out more maps, as these are costly to create. (Also, really challenging games have high enough skill ceilings to make you feel very special for being exceptionally good at them, something which the video mentions.)

LoL got only 1 map and it doesn't stretch playtime yet players invest a lot of playtime.
The devs could easily create a level 80 Dried Lake map and repeat the same ones.
It was like that in CB:
Plateau = Mountain ledge.
Dry Woods = Dry Penninsula
Sewers = Waste Pool
Crematorium = Cells
Dunes = Shore
Cemetery = Graveyard
Marsh(replaced by Arsenal= Mud Geyser
Overgrown Ruin = Overgrown Shrine
Spider Lair = Arach Nest
Spider Forest = Dark Forest
Gorge = Canyon
Necropolis = Catacombs
Maze = Vaal Pyramid
Dungeon = Torture Chamber
Tropical Island = Jungle Valley
Crypt = Tomb(replaces by Pier)

Subterran Stream got replaced by Wharf but the Cavern of Anger Layout on those maps always was different.

While the layouts are different nothing prevents GGG to make maps got from 60 to 100 for example. But 100 would mean each white mob will do 12k damage with the current design.


And there is a huge difference between a difficult game with good gameplay or and difficult game with bad gameplay.

Contra is a hard game but the gameplay is good. A Terminator for Snes is a hard game but the gameplay is bad. Such as you need grenades to destroy mines you can't jump over.

Also there is a huge difference how you add difficulty or is it "difficulty"

This lies simply in the feeling of having a chance.
If PoE designs a monster in hedge maze Merciless which does 6000 base fire+phys damage and twice on big far shot this isn't difficulty. This is trial and error and bad design.
This isn't any different from playing a bullet hell game where 1 hit = rip.

Contra, Hagane etc were hard but you always felt like having a chance because enemies dies in 1-2 hits. In PoE HP got increased in such a big that you need several hits on white mobs already(unless high end EQ) and Unique mobs are rather look like raids.

Also PoE progression is so slow it demotivates players to create several characters!

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2) The core reason for abandoning the early "punishing" model was to appeal to a broader audience — which implies the smaller audience, players who enjoy being punished. That's right, there are masochists out there. And make no mistake: PoE is designed with masochists in mind.

No PoE is designed like a common bad MMORPG without suscription fees or ingame shop for Real Money. Those also add content which will one shot you and you need to grind or pay to progress.

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The videos specifically mentions alternatives to triple-A design as a route to experiment with difficulty again. GGG can afford to make a game with masochist appeal because it's an indie studio. What would be suicidal for a major developer (such as Blizzard) can be a good idea for Grinding Gear.

Bullshit D3 Inferno wasn't any different than PoE now. Trial and Error, yet most players left because of the lack of skillsystem, auction house and poor droprates.




My suggestion on PoE in CB was to raise the difficulty by increasing the basespeed of mobs aka turbo them but leave HP and damage as it is.
The only difficulty in CB in "Path of Ranged" was not to hit somebody with reflect out of screen. And reflect is a corpse compared to earlier. Reflect auras are like 8% now, when they earlier hurt like hitting several LT mobs.
Reflect mod on maps was 25%.
Not to mention playing with capped res wasn't needed.

This results in many hits but you don't feel like having no chance. Even a casual player can progress by playing slow.
That's the huge difference to: Gearcheck fail = rip.

A huge increase in speed would have forced ranged players to go point blank. Reducing their damage on bigger range.

Reducing the speed would be better on evasion than unavoidable attacks/spells which result in "whack dead".

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..d...don...t ...t..ry cat mario

dat is all.

Cat Mario isn't a serious game it's a joke game.

If you are familiar with Super Mario you will grab the Mushroom or the Star. But there one Mushroom is poison the other makes you big and crush the ground and the star kills you.

Also I am pretty sure Mario used a similar trap in a level but it was less evil by spawning invisible blocks when you tried to hit a "? Block" you got closed in and had to suicide.

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raics a écrit :

There's one other thing from the video that could apply - game rule consistency. Sometimes you feel enemies hold some other copy of the book from the one you read from. Take charges, for example, their effect on minions and enemies is what, double, triple? I still got no idea but they're hella lot more effective than on us. So, we got a noob whacking on those enduring cry bears from broken bridge and wondering why the hell are they so resilient - they got only 3 charges on them, 12% phys reduction and resist all shouldn't be that much of a problem. Also, they get more than one charge even if there's only one enemy... which is a very lame rule dodging, could have been a great anti-party-anti-summoner mechanics.

Also enemy auras are stronger and they have access to auras that would be beyond broken on us. And, while on that, content is heavily censored, we don't have access to skills that would be broken on us and enemies don't have skills which would be broken on them, or we use versions that wildly differ in strength.

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Moosifer a écrit :

With your last part I'm not sure what you expect as a reply. Some people are luckier, some people play the market better (took me 6-8 months to get into 73+ maps, my roommate was there in a month because he would just buy them, I refuse to) then of course there's RMT. There's more to it beyond he copied your build.

That's actually a good observation, if you can eliminate difficulty by doing something, we could argue the game isn't difficult at all but punishing to those that don't want to do that, whatever it is. And we're not talking about a glitch or an exploit but a perfectly legit way to play the game.

The most fun is when you dominating blow mobs with certain auras or mods that you want. Like, seriously. The ES aura from most mobs give you like 5k+ ES. It's ridiculous.


Path of Exile has almost no rule consistency, kills you without telling you why half the time, has serious issues with desync, etc. and people wonder why there aren't more people playing the game. This is all on top of RNG issues and itemization issues.

You just need to look at Orchard boss, to understand how difficulty is fked up and replaced with punishment.

A noob gets into the map and even if it's populated my Act3X annoyances, it's fairly doable even at lvl 66. Then he gets at the boss, and BAM! oneshot. hahaha, stoopid noob, you got lured into the trap... you wont do that boss again, lol