PoE is punishing, not difficult. Video to clarify the difference.

"

Fruz a écrit :

"

Cronk a écrit :

"

Fruz a écrit :

rpgs are games that are meant to have no success, and just fail.
See Final Fantasy series as an example ?

right.

what?

Well if you cut a sentence in half, you are prolly gonna miss its meaning of course.

point is : part of what the guy says at the end of the video just applies to arcade game.
Is PoE an arcade game ?

No. I have never played an RPG where I have to re-roll a character because it's so 'fail'.

The closest I ever came was Divine Divinity where I couldn't beat one of the end-of-the-entire game bosses and I couldn't be arsed to find out why, I felt I had 'done the game' anyway. I'm certainly not going to re-roll and complete the entire game again just to re-run a end-of-the-game boss fight.

But I did go back to the game a year or two later for a another game (it just wouldn't work on Windows 7, which is a different topic).

Divine Divinity was another RPG which invented its own independent 'rules of engagement' like many aPRGs, you know, spell-casting fighters etc.

But, essentially, regardless of the mechanics, RPGs do indeed permit practically any build to work. The only way you can 'fail' a build is if you do something really, really, really, incredibly retarded:

1) Pick a fighter and then give them minimum Strengh, minimum Dexterity, minimum constitution and max out Charisma and Intelligence and Wisdom (or whatever varieties of these the game offers).

2) And then during the game kit them out with completely mis-matching gear, such as robes instead of full-plate, dual wield daggers instead of a flaming longsword +4 and Shield +2.

In other words, you'd have to be completely incapable of logical intuitive thinking to even discover a build which was completely unviable.

And even then you might still find 'hardcore' gamers which will attempt to prove that your 'inept' character was in fact viable if you'd made better gear choices and used 'heavy tactics' instead of regular playing.

The result comparison is therefore this:

Normal RPG:

Crappy character design = harder game
Standard character design = normal game
Min/max = easier game

PoE:

Crappy character design = impossible game
Standard character design = harder game, possibly impossible
Min/max = steamroll

But that the PoE version puts even more emphasis on gear, so that no matter how much you min/max, you might still be finding yourself in the impossible category simply because the game doesn't cater for builds with it's drops.

In order to 'do a build' you have to already have the currency to enable the gear-specific rolling of the specific mods, or you have to trade for them all, hoping that someone's actually selling the exact mods you require, on the right piece of equipment.

And this 'build' you create, whatever it is, has to prioritise Life/ES, because any other avenue for acquiring these stats in exclusion is un-viable. And this happens because game difficulty is based 'solely' on 'increased number of attack damage' combined with the fact that you (obviously) are not allowed 100% damage mitigation to any defensive attribute.

Some might even argue that each new 'build' isn't even a 'new build', it's just a different skill pressed into similarly stat'ed but technically different high life/ES equipment.

Intuitive:

To me, most of PoE is generally intuitive. You select passives which look like the same wording as your skills, you wear skills that seem to do the job in a way you like, each class is 'generally' defined by their innate stat, and the gear is quite evident/blatant (in most but not all cases) about whether it will be useful for your build.

However, once you are up and running with your build, at some point the build might well fail. It has a very good probability of failing - even by following the most intuitive path, and the reason will most likely be Life/Resists and/or ineffectual DPS.

Traditionally, RPGs have a 'variety' of ways to complete content if you have an underpowered character facing an over-powered mob. The only 'variety' of making an underpowered character survivable in PoE is by having them join a party - let someone else do the content.

So, while PoE has rules and objectives, like any game, and it punishes you with failure if you do not abide by these rules and objectives, the idea that these rules and objectives are somehow 'normal' for RPGs specifically is incorrect.

PoE is, whatever character you take, pretty much an exercise in balancing Life/Resists/DPS, with very little in-game challenge variety.

This is fine. This works ok. There are no end of people who are perfectly happy with this scenario. The game provides a whole lot of different stimuli than simply role-playing a character. Trading, partying, repetitive monster killing, collecting things, etc etc, is more than enough to make a lot of people very happy indeed.

But, please, don't make rabid generalisations that the entire point of RPGs is to create failure when, in reality, the exact opposite is the truth.

"

Fruz a écrit :

Re-rolling ? what re-rolling ? how come is the video connected to something that looks like re-rolling ?
You should re read my last post maybe, because it seems that you completely misunderstood what I said.

If I misunderstood your post, how would re-reading it help?

Maybe you could try being descriptive instead of trying to make the forums a twitter-like quick opinion splatter-fest.

"

Fruz a écrit :

That's because I've been quite explicit actually :

"

fruz a écrit :

Some of what is said in the video really fits for ... arcade games.


"[...], if you demand that the player waits for minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance to the thing they failed at, you have created a game that is punishing, not difficult. And punishing game will never succeed".
BS.
Seriously, this sentence basically states that most RPGs game will never succeed.
This applies for arcade games maybe, not for PoE.

I'm quoting the exact part of the video that goes completely against any RPG.

Have you ever seen a rpg where a you can re-do one turn of a fight just because you chose the wrong action ?
I have not, and it's most likely because such a design would basically kill what makes the rpg good : commitment.

Erm... that quote was you replying to John, not me - as far as I was concerned I was replying to things you had said to me, not some other dude having a different discussion - and you accuse me of misreading - you're completely incapable of the basic concept of a discussion.

You said RPGs are all about the fail.

I responded to that, NOT some conversation you were having with someone else.

Please conversate with me if it me you are going to berate for not understanding something you said to someone else which has nothing at all to do with your conversation with me.

Fucking jesus.

"

Fruz a écrit :

I actually just developped a little bit more, that's all.
If you can't follow what people say in a conversation ( <=> a discussion thread on a forum ) and skip the parts you want like this or for example your previous message where you completely cut off half of a sentence, it's not my problem.

You definitely seem to have problems communicating on a forum, honestly idk : re-read the whole thing to understand what is what because you may have missed some points, w/e.


PS : I never that rpgs were all about the fail, that's a perfect example of you splitting a sentence in 2 and completely ignoring half of it after then, and in a debate/an argument, this is just a toxic behaviour, especially since I told you that you should read the whole sentence and not half of it and you keep doing it ( in all honesty ).

Now if you would please stop going off-topic over stuff you are making up ... that'd be nice.

No mate, not by a long shot are you horseshitting your way out of this.

The sentence was seperated from the rest of the post because the rest of the post did not relate to that sentence in any way what so ever.

The sentence "RPGs are designed to have no success, just fail" is completely unqualified and just sits there like some redundant catchphrase.

You can read the posts over and over again and it will still say exactly the same thing.

What the fuck do you mean RPGs are designed to have 'no success'?

What the fuck do you mean RPGs are design to have 'just fail'?

Mossifer's already told you why this is horseshit, and I've even bothered to explain why.

And you just sit there saying 'read again'? WFT are you on?

So I load up a new character and fight my first mob - I die and I always die? Is that what you mean by NO SUCCESS?

Is that what you mean by JUST FAIL?

God good you're lazy.