Is PoE 2 even trying to widen its target?

"

Oinkaments#6390 a écrit :

"

bewilder2#0356 a écrit :

PoE 2, however, is still a poo2 and owing so much of its success from PoE 1 / GGG name. The game is an abomination of mish-mash action combat game that neither have good action and combat, nor have the same depth of its predecessor customization / freedom. The game has no identity and Jonathan keep wishy-washy into what he wants the game to be, sometime leaning toward poo1 screecher, sometime leaning into poo2 licker.

You truly are filled with a lot of hatred. 0.3 is beloved and going in the right direction. The game is still in EA and shits on LE in every single possible aspect. To even dare compare POE 2 to LE should be highly reprimanded by the gaming community.

LE is a bad joke, a vastly inferior product. POE2 is awesome and will be the best ARPG in existence at 1.0. End game still need work but they are addressing it.

+1 LE and D4 most unfun games.

Even unfinished poe2 is 100x better.

"

lupasvasile#5385 a écrit :

And POE 2 endgame has any game play? Let's not pretend that holding right mouse button while shit explodes around you is game play.

I understand why POE addicts cannot stand LE, but that doesn't make a great argument.

It doesn't either, that is correct.

"

YNRY#3842 a écrit :

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

I agree with almost everything you said op, but at this point i just roll with it

The rule of thumb for poe is quantity over quality and the obscurity of most systems

Although poe is a seasonal live service game, it's meant to be a niche game, you can see that through the community and the philosophy behind the game, they're simply not welcoming for new players

This is definitely not the type of game that you can recommend in a random conversation with your typical group of friends for example

I know we were promised differently but it is what it is

You agreed with this statement? "the whole system is a bloody mess made of 376 different currencies, none of them ever explained by the game."

I partially agree with this one in specific yes

The number of currencies follows the rule of quantity over quality, it's only natural that you can't have 3xx meaningful different currencies, it'll always boil down to the majority of them becoming generic or essentially useless

Wording is another aspect, an item that grants you a "Kurgal modifier" or an "Ulaman modifier" doesn't tell you much does it?

Or how Tier 1 modifiers are the best, but for unidentified items, Tier 5 is actually better than Tier 1, and a waystone of tier 1 is worse than a waystone of tier 16

When you're familiar with the game you don't pay attention to these things so it's fine, but you need to understand that for new players the game has a lot of messy and confusing systems

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

The number of currencies follows the rule of quantity over quality, it's only natural that you can't have 3xx meaningful different currencies, it'll always boil down to the majority of them becoming generic or essentially useless

They are working perfectly fine in the actual game, which you would know if you played it enough to actually come to understand the systems.

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

Wording is another aspect, an item that grants you a "Kurgal modifier" or an "Ulaman modifier" doesn't tell you much does it?

It tells you which type it is, so that you can target the modifier. You can find out the modifiers by trying it, or you can go on a crafting calculator.

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

Or how Tier 1 modifiers are the best, but for unidentified items, Tier 5 is actually better than Tier 1, and a waystone of tier 1 is worse than a waystone of tier 16

The item tiers are not uniform. Whereas tiered items and maps are. It is easier to tell what is the higher tier in items if t1 is best, because the amount of tiers varies. In cases where it is uniform, it is easy to tell which is best, and so naturally higher is better.

Just because you don't understand it's function, doesn't mean the functionality has a problem.

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

When you're familiar with the game you don't pay attention to these things so it's fine, but you need to understand that for new players the game has a lot of messy and confusing systems

They are not messy and confusing, as you can see with the reasons I provided, mechanically they make the most sense within the game. The game has a lot of depth and breadth, and so these nuances are important. A game like Last Epoch, does not. If you would prefer a game with less, you know where to find it already.

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

"

YNRY#3842 a écrit :

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

I agree with almost everything you said op, but at this point i just roll with it

The rule of thumb for poe is quantity over quality and the obscurity of most systems

Although poe is a seasonal live service game, it's meant to be a niche game, you can see that through the community and the philosophy behind the game, they're simply not welcoming for new players

This is definitely not the type of game that you can recommend in a random conversation with your typical group of friends for example

I know we were promised differently but it is what it is

You agreed with this statement? "the whole system is a bloody mess made of 376 different currencies, none of them ever explained by the game."

I partially agree with this one in specific yes

The number of currencies follows the rule of quantity over quality, it's only natural that you can't have 3xx meaningful different currencies, it'll always boil down to the majority of them becoming generic or essentially useless

Wording is another aspect, an item that grants you a "Kurgal modifier" or an "Ulaman modifier" doesn't tell you much does it?

Or how Tier 1 modifiers are the best, but for unidentified items, Tier 5 is actually better than Tier 1, and a waystone of tier 1 is worse than a waystone of tier 16

When you're familiar with the game you don't pay attention to these things so it's fine, but you need to understand that for new players the game has a lot of messy and confusing systems

I'm not going to play semantics. It was a yes or no question. You did not show that there are 376 currency items in the game, or that none of them are explained in the game. The short answer was 'no.'

Why i'm feeling like you're overly passionate about this topic and actually got kind of offended by my reply..

"

AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

They are working perfectly fine in the actual game, which you would know if you played it enough to actually come to understand the systems.

I play poe 2 since closed beta, i played every league so far i and know how to craft items, what are you even talking about? Just because i think there are too many steps or variables doesn't mean i don't know how to interact with the system. They're not mutually exclusive.

"

AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

It tells you which type it is, so that you can target the modifier. You can find out the modifiers by trying it, or you can go on a crafting calculator.

Isn't clear that i think that this is the exact the problem? Using a crafting calculator is more optimal than experimenting with the game. I honestly don't care if you don't think this is the case.

"

AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

The item tiers are not uniform. Whereas tiered items and maps are. It is easier to tell what is the higher tier in items if t1 is best, because the amount of tiers varies. In cases where it is uniform, it is easy to tell which is best, and so naturally higher is better.

Just because you don't understand it's function, doesn't mean the functionality has a problem.

It's still unintuitive for new players and thats just it. In fact, GGG actually tried changing that and making it more consistent with the other tier systems, in the beginning T5 mods were better than T1 mods but the poe 1 complained about it.

"

AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

They are not messy and confusing, as you can see with the reasons I provided, mechanically they make the most sense within the game. The game has a lot of depth and breadth, and so these nuances are important. A game like Last Epoch, does not. If you would prefer a game with less, you know where to find it already.

I offered one or two simple examples that just came into my mind, you don't need to act like you're refuting an elaborated thesis.

You're clearly not aware of what new poe players struggles with, and if it's a topic that you're ignorant about or if it simply bothers you for whatever reason you can ignore it, isn't that big of a deal honestly like i have no idea know why you felt the need to quote me 2 different times but ok..

"

Kerchunk#7797 a écrit :

...that's also not what the 24 hour peak is.

24-hour peak is a measure of the highest number of players who were logged in simultaneously during that period of time. What you are describing is total daily active players/users (DAU). Two very different metrics that I see people confuse here constantly.

I'm well aware, thanks for pointing out my inaccurate description. I didn't mean to say it like I obviously did.

That's what I meant, at any one point within the 24 hours the highest concurrent number logged on. But nothing to do with the total TIME the players have put in within the 24 hour mark.


Peak is important as a minor snapshot of maximum behavior (ie: the "prime time" of play). It is the LEAST reliable data point we have to gain insight into anything.....but it still paints a very grim picture for Last Epoch, exactly as I described. It's also a MORE reliable data point, the smaller the timeframe is. A "peak" value over the course of, say, a month is far less accurate snapshot than a "peak" within a single day. If the maximum concurrent login across a 24 hour period, for multiple days and weeks on end, is THAT low......it points to an incredibly low overall playerbase, while also accounting for NEW players that choose today to dip their toes in. That's one thing averages weed out: the outlier players that choose inopportune times to start.

"

YNRY#3842 a écrit :

I'm not going to play semantics. It was a yes or no question. You did not show that there are 376 currency items in the game, or that none of them are explained in the game. The short answer was 'no.'

Who said that "none of them are explained in the game."?

Because i definitely didn't say anything like that.

Also, if you ask me something i have to explain why i think that, which is what i did since it's a complex topic, this isn't a 0 or 1 type of situation lol

Do you not know what "partially agree" means?

Also, i don't know why you're asking about the exact number of currencies since i never specifically mentioned the number 376, you can ask the other guy for that or just check the exact number with Ange in-game if you want, but there's no doubt that there are a lot of them.

"

AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

It tells you which type it is, so that you can target the modifier. You can find out the modifiers by trying it, or you can go on a crafting calculator.

Don't you see how.....writing this line is precisely the problem.

If you actually just typed out "go on a crafting calculator" and still think things are fine in-game then you are being deliberately oblivious to what it actually COULD and frankly should be.

Depth is not equal to "you need to exit the game for information". You can have plenty of depth, just keep it consistent, clear, and above all...descriptive enough IN GAME.


This is one of the top 3 issues GGG has had across the entire lifetime of PoE 1: reliance on out-of-game tools to explain processes or test processes because you literally CANNOT DO SO in the game itself. PoE 2 is copying these issues with regards to currency and crafting. It doesn't need to, while also providing the same or better "depth" if that's your concern.


Regarding clarity: you can ALWAYS learn a convoluted labeling system through experience, but that doesn't mean that system is absolutely "correct" or not convoluted. Take tiers: across every single aspect of this game, a lower number should be equal to a higher value if that is what they intend. There should be NO SCENARIO that breaks this pattern. If there is, that isn't depth, its a lack of clarity and synergy within the overall systems at play.
The very essence of "clarity" is being able to extrapolate COMMON information across a wide variety of systems. PoE currently fails at that because too many things either completely break from the norm, go in the opposite direction, or otherwise have a completely different meaning (*cough cough, "nearby", *cough).




Regarding currency bloat: again, this is a major problem from PoE 1 carried into PoE 2. It is directly lifted from "afk game" models, where each individual powerup has its own currency, but ultimately results in the same thing. This is the OLD way of doing it for GGG: currency for harvest, currency for expedition, currency for each minute step in the process. But there isn't ACTUALLY a need for all of that: why can't currencies be used across multiple systems in different ways, to cut down on unwieldy amounts of currency types? For example, each orb has a direct usage.....but then other options in-game cost a specific number of those SAME ORBS to perform different crafting tasks? Of course you can't cut everything out, such as essences, but you can seriously trim the fat and streamline everything.

No loss of depth, only loss of bloat.

"

Vyend#2601 a écrit :

"

YNRY#3842 a écrit :

I'm not going to play semantics. It was a yes or no question. You did not show that there are 376 currency items in the game, or that none of them are explained in the game. The short answer was 'no.'

Who said that "none of them are explained in the game."?

Because i definitely didn't say anything like that.

Also, if you ask me something i have to explain why i think that, which is what i did since it's a complex topic, this isn't a 0 or 1 type of situation lol

Do you not know what "partially agree" means?

Also, i don't know why you're asking about the exact number of currencies since i never specifically mentioned the number 376, you can ask the other guy for that or just check the exact number with Ange in-game if you want, but there's no doubt that there are a lot of them.

That is what OP wrote. I quoted it and asked if you agreed with it since you said you agreed with most of what he wrote. I singled out that particular statement since it's (maybe) the only definitive thing he wrote in that first post (and because it's so absurd and a bold-faced lie) - and thus could elicit a "yes" or "no" response. You can't partially agree on whether or not there are 376 currency items and none of them are explained in the game.