Is PoE 2 even trying to widen its target?

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YNRY#3842 a écrit :

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Vyend#2601 a écrit :

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YNRY#3842 a écrit :

I'm not going to play semantics. It was a yes or no question. You did not show that there are 376 currency items in the game, or that none of them are explained in the game. The short answer was 'no.'

Who said that "none of them are explained in the game."?

Because i definitely didn't say anything like that.

Also, if you ask me something i have to explain why i think that, which is what i did since it's a complex topic, this isn't a 0 or 1 type of situation lol

Do you not know what "partially agree" means?

Also, i don't know why you're asking about the exact number of currencies since i never specifically mentioned the number 376, you can ask the other guy for that or just check the exact number with Ange in-game if you want, but there's no doubt that there are a lot of them.

That is what OP wrote. I quoted it and asked if you agreed with it since you said you agreed with most of what he wrote. I singled out that particular statement since it's (maybe) the only definitive thing he wrote in that first post (and because it's so absurd and a bold-faced lie) - and thus could elicit a "yes" or "no" response. You can't partially agree on whether or not there are 376 currency items and none of them are explained in the game.

BAHAHAHHAHAH

Dude what are you on about? I partially agree about the "none of them are explained in the game" part

Take some of the abyssal omens for example like the Ulaman one, in the beginning the tooltip didn't mention that they only work on weapons or amulets, GGG released a patch just to make this clear, this is what i'm talking about, similar thing happened with trial coins too, and also the example i gave about the "Kurgal/Ulaman/Whatever Modifier" that doesn't specify what it does

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Vyend#2601 a écrit :

BAHAHAHHAHAH

Dude what are you on about? I partially agree about the "none of them are explained in the game" part

Take some of the abyssal omens for example like the Ulaman one, in the beginning the tooltip didn't mention that they only work on weapons or amulets, GGG released a patch just to make this clear, this is what i'm talking about, similar thing happened with trial coins too, and also the example i gave about the "Kurgal/Ulaman/Whatever Modifier" that doesn't specify what it does

Well there you go. We're finally discovering a concrete piece of criticism, not just general handwaving about quantity over quality, or whatever.

Anyway, if you still don't understand that 4 cannot be divided by 0, I can't help with that.

Edit: And just for fun... I still have no idea what those crafting items do. I saw that they're worth like 1/12th of an exalt and forgot they existed.

No one (except the devs, I guess) had any idea what they did until reading up on POEDB or testing them. There isn't really anything wrong with that. You're always just a google search away...

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Vyend#2601 a écrit :

It's still unintuitive for new players and thats just it. In fact, GGG actually tried changing that and making it more consistent with the other tier systems, in the beginning T5 mods were better than T1 mods but the poe 1 complained about it.

Doesn't make sense for the tiers to be listed in ascending order if they are not uniform. That is just the basics of formatting. How do you know which tier is the highest? A t5 phys mod is terrible, but a t5 attack mod is god tier? Just does not align. When listed in descending order it is obvious. T1 is best always. It is not about "poe1 players complaining".

If you play for 10 minutes, ask yourself the question, then google it, the first reddit post will tell you the answer and then you will know for the rest of your playtime.

If it was ascending order, you would need to check for every affix every time you forget which is highest over and over. How does this not make sense to you?

How is it more new player friendly to expect them to remember the amount of tiers in hundreds of different affixes?

You just do not comprehend these systems well enough to understand what is unnecessary, most things you list have very important reasons to be that way.

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

Doesn't make sense for the tiers to be listed in ascending order if they are not uniform. That is just the basics of formatting. How do you know which tier is the highest? A t5 phys mod is terrible, but a t5 attack mod is god tier? Just does not align. When listed in descending order it is obvious. T1 is best always. It is not about "poe1 players complaining".

That ascending comment of the other player was certainly wrong. BUT his main point was that the "tier" system is inconsistent across multiple systems that use it.

Ex: Map tiers vs. Mod Tiers
One can easily learn that map tiers ascend in difficulty, but mod tiers DESCEND in power. But that doesn't lend itself to consistency OR clarity. Without experience ofc.

Granted....maps HAVE to be organized in ascending fashion because they can always add on new tiers. For mods, they rarely add tiers: instead they tweak values. And as you said, with the most powerful version being the lowest numbered tier, it is instantly clear where YOUR mod lies within the spectrum. Not the case if it were the other way around.
Perhaps this is the highest level of clarity that GGG can provide if we compare these two categories of "tiers". But i'm sure there are other inconsistencies that can be fixed to a "normal" labeling system.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

Doesn't make sense for the tiers to be listed in ascending order if they are not uniform. That is just the basics of formatting. How do you know which tier is the highest? A t5 phys mod is terrible, but a t5 attack mod is god tier? Just does not align. When listed in descending order it is obvious. T1 is best always. It is not about "poe1 players complaining".

That ascending comment of the other player was certainly wrong. BUT his main point was that the "tier" system is inconsistent across multiple systems that use it.

Ex: Map tiers vs. Mod Tiers
One can easily learn that map tiers ascend in difficulty, but mod tiers DESCEND in power. But that doesn't lend itself to consistency OR clarity. Without experience ofc.

Granted....maps HAVE to be organized in ascending fashion because they can always add on new tiers. For mods, they rarely add tiers: instead they tweak values. Perhaps this is the highest level of clarity that GGG can provide if we compare these two categories of "tiers".

Bro did you actually read my reply?

Let's say 1 is the worst. 1-13 order. There are not 13 tiers in every affix. Some only go to 5. So the best mods for some tiers will be T5, and the best for others will be t13.

It is only more confusing for a new player. They have to remember the amount of tiers in many affixes to determine if the roll they got was a high one.

If instead, it is 1 is the best, 13 is the worst, now suddenly they don't have to remember anything. In progression, they just look at the stats, in endgame they know t1 is best always.

When it comes to maps and items, this is not the case. It is uniform. The highest tier for items is 5. The highest tier for maps is 15. So it only makes sense to list them in terms of progression, upwards.

It is really not something to be arguing about.

^I agreed with you my friend........re-read what I wrote lol. I said HE was wrong about ascending tiers.

What I was pointing out, against your post, was the fact that DIFFERENT tier arrangements simultaneously exist in PoE 1 and PoE 2 and THAT is a clarity problem. But it may be a problem that has no easy solution besides how it already works.

Ideally the "ascending" nature of map tiers would have a completely different labeling altogether....but they would still be colloquially referred to as "tiers", no matter what GGG does.


"When it comes to maps and items, this is not the case. It is uniform. The highest tier for items is 5. The highest tier for maps is 15. So it only makes sense to list them in terms of progression, upwards."

-yes this is all true. BUT it is NOT uniform across all uses of the "tier" terminology. That is what I'm pointing at. For a system to be CRYSTAL CLEAR, the terminology must stay consistent across ALL systems, and it doesn't.

Also...item tiers: who's to say they won't introduce new item tiers non-uniformly? And also perhaps not constantly adding onto the top end. That iss one excellent place where it should ABSOLUTELY be organized in descending fashion, like the mods on those items. Tier 1 should be the best for CLARITY.

Can't you see how much LESS clear it is to have a higher numerical tier item being the best, but having lower numerical mods on that item be the best? There is no reason they BOTH shouldn't and cannot follow the same numerical system, which would be INSTANTLY more clear, for all the same reasons you listed about mod tier labeling.


I'll say it again: I agree with ALL of your rationale and reasoning as to WHY the directionalities are the way they are. They work BEST in their current configuration. But the fact that there are two different (or even multiple) arrangements of "tiers" leads to unnecessary confusion. And GGG is known for being bad about this kind of thing.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

I'll say it again: I agree with ALL of your rationale and reasoning as to WHY the directionalities are the way they are. They work BEST in their current configuration. But the fact that there are two different (or even multiple) arrangements of "tiers" leads to unnecessary confusion. And GGG is known for being bad about this kind of thing.

Alright, I mean it's one way or the other. If the maps went from T15-T1 then new players would be like "why am I going down in levels?" when it comes to maps.

Maybe the tiered items it would make sense to make the best t1, but then it's "why is t1 better than t5 if my maps go from t1-t15".

Everyone has their own baked in logic that just kicks in. It is easiest to make everything progression based except the item affixes, because by the time you care which is "best" and aren't just looking at stats, you will already have a handle on the game and probably know.

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

Alright, I mean it's one way or the other. If the maps went from T15-T1 then new players would be like "why am I going down in levels?" when it comes to maps.

Maybe the tiered items it would make sense to make the best t1, but then it's "why is t1 better than t5 if my maps go from t1-t15".

Everyone has their own baked in logic that just kicks in. It is easiest to make everything progression based except the item affixes, because by the time you care which is "best" you will already have a handle on the game and probably know.

No.....that isn't my point.

I said that I agree, map tiers need to increase. My POINT is on the usage of the "tier" system and terminology. Only the terminology, not the direction.

It's the very wording itself that lends confusion and messiness, BECAUSE different directions of "tiers" exist. There HAS to be a better way to describe these progressions, without using the exact same verbiage to mean two totally different things.

And I believe that was the other guy's point too...before we went down the "which direction is right" rabbit hole. It's not about the direction....its the words.



Best example of my entire point:
"Nearby" means at least 5 different things in PoE 1. Sure...on its face "nearby" is easy to understand. But assigning that SAME WORD to different values or a different arrangement of values creates confusion.

It is EASY to figure out that map tiers increase in difficulty as the number goes up. Or that mods become more powerful as the tiers go down towards 1. But that only verifies the inherent confusion in the wording.

There are countless other examples where GGG's choice of wording creates confusion where there need not be any, if the words being used were uniform across ALL systems it is being used in.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

I said that I agree, map tiers need to increase. My POINT is on the usage of the "tier" system and terminology. Only the terminology, not the direction.

I get your meaning. If "t" for tier on an item affix was something like "affix level" "al", and if tiers on items said "item tier x" instead of just "tier x", it would be easier for people to understand the differences without experience or research.

Yeah, probably not wrong. Feels weird, but might help some people.

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

Yeah, probably not wrong. Feels weird, but might help some people.

Consider this statement:

"I finally have a t5 item with t1 mods!": we might know that to be the best possible item.....but the fact that you are describing two "best" categories in completely opposite ways is just not the best way it could be done.

"You might be fine running t1 maps with a t3 item with at least t4/t5 mods, but if you want to push t15 maps, you might need a t5 item with at least t2/t1 mods."

To me...its this labeling that feels weird having to get used to.



Blizzard sort of actually has a good example of how it could be done to be more clear:
Item Tiers: normal, exceptional, elite, ancient, etc.
Mod Tiers: numerical
Difficulty tiers: normal, nightmare, hell, inferno levels, etc. Maps could potentially have similar labeling that point to mod pool and difficulty. (ex using PoE 1 system: map labeled "Red 1" or "yellow 3" instead of t11 / t8 respectively)

Its actually MORE clear to have more label categories in some cases, because they remain consistent and descriptive of exactly what they represent, every time you see them.