Chris Wilson: "I want to make sure that melee classes are as good as they can be"

A refactoration on Infernal Blow code wouldn't hurt.

Cant believe you guys didn t talk about the economical aspect of doing a good melee gameplay ingame.

Look at how animation work in poe. Stand still--->move hands----> vomit of 1000 spell a seconds while character stand still in same position/ stand still--->move hands--->hit target (or not).

All the animations from poe characters are stiff and stuck in place. Even cyclone look goofy when you really pay attention to the character animation.


So in order to make very good melee skills you would need to have character move, parry, switch targets while using a skill. It cost money and time and GGG probably decided that spending less money and have all skills stiff and stuck in place is better for their budget.

So unless GGG decide to put tons of cash for re-doing the animation/rigging of characters + modify single target melee skills I won t imagine melee be good ever.

Imo all single target skills could use flicker-like animation to switch to other monsters once they are dead but it would mean to make maybe flicker strike a support gem.

Look at games like Street fighter IV or marvel vs capcom. This is how melee should have been animated and acted : Each "hit" on single target should have added a combo then skill gem would add magic effect to each combo moves.



TL/DR bad english.

Animation cost for dynamic-realistic melee animations and skills is too expensive and GGG won t probably do it.

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Head_Less a écrit :

So in order to make very good melee skills you would need to have character move, parry, switch targets while using a skill. It cost money and time and GGG probably decided that spending less money and have all skills stiff and stuck in place is better for their budget.

Animations are more about how melee looks but it can still feel good without looking good. Grim Dawn has crappier animations than PoE and it does melee better, or even D2, if we had martial art Assassin here nobody would play it.

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raics a écrit :

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Head_Less a écrit :

So in order to make very good melee skills you would need to have character move, parry, switch targets while using a skill. It cost money and time and GGG probably decided that spending less money and have all skills stiff and stuck in place is better for their budget.

Animations are more about how melee looks but it can still feel good without looking good. Grim Dawn has crappier animations than PoE and it does melee better, or even D2, if we had martial art Assassin here nobody would play it.

Grimdawn is way slower than poe tho, so each melee attack feel impactfull also because of ragdoll system.

For poe to have great melee feel they would need in my opinion to treat melee like a beat-them-all system with very quick combo in order to feel right in the clear speed meta.

One of the reasons D2's melee felt better at times is holding left click with an attack moved you around if you weren't near an enemy, but it would automatically attack the nearest monster when you were near. So you could run around with a Frenzybarb and still keep your speed boost because you didn't personally have to namelock stuff.

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Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

One of the reasons D2's melee felt better at times is holding left click with an attack moved you around if you weren't near an enemy, but it would automatically attack the nearest monster when you were near. So you could run around with a Frenzybarb and still keep your speed boost because you didn't personally have to namelock stuff.

Exactly, the key to making melee work in fast games is having solid autolock, TL has it, GD has it, D2 has it, Sacred has it, PoE doesn't.

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鬼殺し a écrit :

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bionicg2040 a écrit :

so what you are saying is we should stop playing melee until Chris and the eagles arrive?

or Maybe GGG will pray to Crom (conan the barbarian reference) to figure out the "Riddle of Melee" (that has long been solved before this game was even a thing but for some reason GGG was like: "the hell with you Crom we can solve the riddle with range")

They have to fix targeting (for once) and then make adjustments accordingly. It does not matter how many values they change on a spreadsheet or how many "supports" they add it does not mean dick if a melee player is struggling just to land a single hit (what is it like 20 clicks to hit one monster now?).


Also smile more this is POE for fuck's sake...

What is best in Wraeclast, Chris?

"TO CRUSH YOUR MELEE CLASSES. SEE THEM NERFED BEFORE YOU. AND TO HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR PLAYERS."

That is good!


That is good.

There is a reason why modern ARPGs have moved on from being "Diablo-Clones" to being "Souls-Like". After you 've played melee in Dark Souls, no archaic isometric game will ever satisfy you again in that particular field. You play PoE because it has some of the best itemisation systems and skill trees (arguably THE BEST) in the industry, but every other aspect of it is rather bad (from all things technical, to balance, to lore/story etc.)

For me I would like to see them put in a support gem called combo, that lets you put 2 side by side gems together and when you attack with the first you combo attack into the next.

so for your linke something like this

flicker strike --> combo support --> heavy strike --> combo support --> cleave --> combo support.

Combo support greatly increases attack speed, but increases stun / intterupt chance, combo support adds 30-55% damage increase, can't use same skill per combo chain. Using combo at the end of a 6 link, lets you attack with the first gem again before starting the attack over.

so in the first example pressing attack once would: flicker strike, heavy strike, cleave, flicker strike.

Combo support only works with "combo skills" the new tag allows devs to pick skills to allow to combo, without creating insane broken things like combo shield charges / etc.

That way melee mainly could build in some quick / fast attacking that could have some real value.

For example the flickering would be their gap closer, heavy strike for some big damage, cleave to clear the pack, and flicker to pop to any run aways or to jump near next pack.

Could create so many wonderful and exotic combinations, that would put some real fun into melee.

Could do an earthquake, leap slam, infernal blow, molten striker.

Or toss in dominating blow with a fun claw build dual strike, dominating blow, lacerate combo. etc, etc. The skills would pick up enough damage mods, to balance out against a pure support only setup, but could have lots of fun combinations, a sunder, lighting, wild strike build, could be a blast.

Grim Dawn is not slower than POE. the gameplay, the brievity of fights, the movement is comparable. no to mention that GD has camera bit further from the player so the visible area is bigger creating that illusion

what Grim Dawn lacks is movement-skill spam (that in some cases causes the player to MOVE slower than simply walking - but it LOOKS faster)

melee's problem is just how absurd ranged is - being able to consistently clear 2+ screens at once should not be possible ('oh you are killing my FUN' incoming). you just cannot compete with that no matter what.

single target melee (close range) vs Breachlords? how? instant leech - ok, but what else? so ranged it is. most boss fights are very easy as ranged, very difficult as melee

somehow designers are good at designing good melee boss attacks but very crappy ranged boss attacks. while being completely opposite for players. if bosses were actually a problem for ranged players there we would have an option to play melee.

Fortify used to be 'melee advantage' - gee.. casters have it too. my summoner has it (and clears faster and safer than ANY melee character ever created, for far less money)

dear GGG, if you really want to make melee good - maybe it is time to start doing something about that. right now it is all talk