"Never pay-to-win" Dishonest Marketing by GGG?

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Boem a écrit :

Is it a snickers a mars or a milky way, no it's Bars?

/Gazes at the big B lighting up the evening sky. . .

Wow, you managed to stuff the references in that one :D

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Demonoz a écrit :

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Xavderion a écrit :

I don't think it's misleading because the amount of p2w in this game is miniscule.

Miniscule and a matter of opinion. Just because people dont know the difference between F2P and P2W doesn't make this game P2W at all. Just because you can pay for more "CONVENIENCE" doesn't make the game P2W. Convenience DOES NOT equal WIN! Period.

Your not gonna complete or engage harder content or down the hardest boss;s because of your stash tabs, Your not gonna have a more powerful build just because you bought stash tabs. Is it gonna save you time making mules and switching between them? Sure is it gonna make it so you dont have to use Procurement to post trades? Sure. But its not gonna make you a better player or give you a significant advantage over everyone else. You can litteraly do EVERYTHING a paying player can do for free with 4 tabs and mule accounts.. There is already plenty of players doing it everyday already.

Furthermore it costs $20 to buy 6 premium tabs so if you cant drop that after you have played a while and realize you enjoy the game and want to continue playing.. That's on you.. still doesn't change the game is F2P if anything it reinforces it since you CAN make such a decision to continue playing completely for free if you so choose. You get all the same content paying players get.

You said "Convenience DOES NOT equal WIN! Period." I disagree with you. I think a lack of convenience does mean pay-to-win. I think a lot of pay-to-win games don't prevent you from completing the game, they just make the game less enjoyable unless you pay, that is pay-to-win to me - it is not an ethical microtransaction - as Chris used to say - because it confers an in game advantage. The price of the unethical microtransaction is not relevant it is still pay to win whether you had to pay $1,000 or $1.

''You said "Convenience DOES NOT equal WIN! Period." I disagree with you. I think a lack of convenience does mean pay-to-win. I think a lot of pay-to-win games don't prevent you from completing the game, they just make the game less enjoyable unless you pay, that is pay-to-win to me - it is not an ethical microtransaction - as Chris used to say - because it confers an in game advantage. The price of the unethical microtransaction is not relevant it is still pay to win whether you had to pay $1,000 or $1.''


I do not think that the tabs would be considered unethical. I think they should just change the exaggerated advertisement wording of ''Never pay to win'' to ''A mostly strict no paying to win philosophy'' because ''NEVER pay to win'' is a strong all encompassing absolute statement.

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FelicityFlowers a écrit :

I think a lack of convenience does mean pay-to-win.

Some people agree with you, others don't.

Some of us are working with different definitions.
That's about all there is to this.

This game is NOT P2W, by far is it even close to being that.... I have played many P2W games and this one is the only one that does not give anybody who donates/purchases packs an advantage over anyone else.

I am a supporter myself, I may not be the highest in supporting the game, but in no way have I got anything "extra" for paying.

Supporting a game you really enjoy is a way of saying thank you, I do it when I can, I am never forced nor am I promised anything in return for doing it.

The only thing that pisses me off the most is there is not enough portal mtx to get......

Personally the worst part about it is when you tell your friends about PoE, you need to include a disclaimer.

"It's not pay to win at all! Except you can pay money for more space to store items. But that's not really that pay to win, it's mostly just for convenience."

I'd rather just be able to say, "It's not pay to win at all!"

Here are my thoughts on this thread,

First of all, lets reaffirm the original problem in and of the fact that GGG stated in its marketing campaign for atlas of worlds that "POE contains no pay to win elements and never will"

As brought up before, this is an absolute statement which implies that the game is 100% free of any kind of paid transaction which could confer even the slightest advantage of one person over another.

Now, lets take a scenario.

Player A and Player B both have the exact same amount of playtime and knowledge about the game, including trading knowledge. Both start a new account at the same time. These new accounts have one difference between them, one has 4 standard stash tabs and the other has 4 standard stash tabs 40 indexed tabs and a currency tab.

Now, for GGG's statement to hold true, player B having these stash tabs while Player A doesnt must confer no advantage whatsoever.

The extent of the advantage stash tabs confer is irrelevant, the purpose of this thread is calling out GGG's false advertising.

Now I get that GGG needs to pay its employees and I'm not against stash tabs costing money. Yes they are just a convenience, and the advantage they confer can be overcome with sheer effort, so its not truly gating any f2p players.

The majority of poe's playerbase is mature as well, this is a difficult game to learn and maintain and its not all that attractive for younger players, meaning the vast majority of poe's target audience has an income and isn't afraid to spend some money.

I personally have dropped about $100 on poe, in some games this would make me a p2w whale, but here its basically nothing.

In short, stash tabs are reasonably priced, go on sale often and don't confer a huge advantage.

BUT, the atlas of worlds advert conveys false information which is rustling jimmies. That's where things stand.

I think the main thing here is how GGG stated how they define "Pay-To-Win" to them QOL features like Clothing that covers your legs, Extra Storage and Additional Graphical/Audio Effects aren't Pay-To-Win. On the other hand the way they define Pay-To-Win seems to be something like paying Premium Currency to Purchase Pre-Levelled Characters, Experience Boosters, Overpowered PVP/PVE Only Weapons/Equipment.

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FelicityFlowers a écrit :

Is it fair to say "Never Pay to Win" on the new Atlas of Worlds marketing: http://massivelyop.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/AtlasofWorldsFactSheet.jpg

I think obviously the premium stash tabs do not confer just a cosmetic in game appearance. I think the premium stash tabs confer a tangible in game advantage in that it makes currency ultimately easier to obtain. I am not saying it is impossible to be successful in game without the premium tabs - but they certainly make the in game experience and acquisition of currency much easier.

I think the premium tabs are paying to get an in game in advantage - which I think is the common interpretation of "Pay to Win". I'm not saying if it is good or bad business by GGG - or judging GGG for charging for the premium stash tabs - or commenting on the price of the tabs - or judging those who do or do not have premium tabs - but is it not misleading to now advertise as "Never Pay to Win"?

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FelicityFlowers a écrit :

I think the premium tabs are paying to get an in game in advantage

Not a problem, it's the truth.

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FelicityFlowers a écrit :

which I think is the common interpretation of "Pay to Win"

Has nothing to do with winning, it's a time safer, and that's all!

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FelicityFlowers a écrit :

but is it not misleading to now advertise as "Never Pay to Win"?

pay 2 win - means i pay i win?
- I buy prem.tabs to have a better overview (iam more efficient in searching my items, and i could index them in those tabs, win?)
- I buy additional tabs to store more items (more items==more trades==win?)
- I post my items on trading section in this forum (free, works the same as putting them into public prem.tabs==win?)
- I make use of PoEs API to index my items with a 3rd party tool (win?)


Pretty sure that buying additional tabs is way more a Win than a premium tab is!
And purchasing storage and not using all avail characters inventory instead is just because ppl dont like it, or beeing lazy to switch chars everytime.

Imo the stashtabs are p2w is a obsolete statement. It's luxury.

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I think the premium tabs are paying to get an in game in advantage - which I think is the common interpretation of "Pay to Win". I'm not saying if it is good or bad business by GGG - or judging GGG for charging for the premium stash tabs - or commenting on the price of the tabs - or judging those who do or do not have premium tabs - but is it not misleading to now advertise as "Never Pay to Win"?

premium stash tabs and why i'm shared about your toughts.

I've been using acquisition for a while and procurement then jumped to premium stash tabs;

If you are comparing them with premium stash tabs you will notice third party tools wich are FREE are giving much more advantages and options than premium tabs.
They are for the most part stable and quality tools aswell.

Sooo at the end it would be hard to say this game is pay to win :/
If they were removing third party tools it would be another story.

See my point ? :)