10 Reasons Why We All Play Chaos Builds (Bump if You Hate Reflect)

so here's why reflect is GOOD, and why nerfing it is bad, in logical form.

1. reflect is GOOD because it provides a DPS cap; there's a downside of stacking DPS if there's reflect. if you're an entitled player who thinks you must have high dps because you're playing an ARPG, this concept might be foreign to you.

2. reflect is GOOD because it punishes players who do not pay attention to packs/rares and autopilot clear. these mechanics break the monotony of the game and force players to be aware of their surroundings and react accordingly (the same as bearers, etc)

3. reflect is GOOD because it presents a problem that needs to be solved, with tools available to solve them. As such, it provides meaningful choice of different methods of dealing with it. Again, players who dont like problem solving and making sacrifices, will make a choice of trying to ignore the problem as much as possible.

4. chaos isnt played because people hate reflect. it's played because it provides as much, if not more, raw power than elemental builds, has the most more multipliers to its supports aside from penetration, has very few monsters resistant to it, has auxiliary means of lowering chaos resists (ascendancies, wither totem) has very few map mods detrimental to health or clear speed, and yeah, no reflect.

again, let's go back to times when we had reflect auras in the game. a small population was playing voltaxic. it was in a good spot. with real reflect packs.


again, there isn't a single inherent reason as to why reflect is bad. people who love high dps might hate it, but who gives two shits ? theres never been a more dire time in NERF of raw dps than now.

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grepman a écrit :

4. chaos isnt played because people hate reflect. it's played because it provides as much, if not more, raw power than elemental builds, has the most more multipliers to its supports aside from penetration, has very few monsters resistant to it, has auxiliary means of lowering chaos resists (ascendancies, wither totem) has very few map mods detrimental to health or clear speed, and yeah, no reflect.

Total, arrant nonsense. No sparker plays with a voltaxic because it gives them better damage.

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davidnn5 a écrit :

Total, arrant nonsense. No sparker plays with a voltaxic because it gives them better damage.

then it sounds like you don't understand voltaxic very well, because Poison gives voltaxic spark somewhere around a "161% more damage" modifier from a single support link, even if you don't get any increased skill duration. (It's around '307% more damage' if you grab 90% inc duration on the tree).


Yeah, a legit caster weapon's gonna have a hard time making up for that.

I think that having "reflect-ish" mechanics is good, but the current implementation of reflect is bad.

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grepman a écrit :

so here's why reflect is GOOD, and why nerfing it is bad, in logical form.

1. reflect is GOOD because it provides a DPS cap; there's a downside of stacking DPS if there's reflect. if you're an entitled player who thinks you must have high dps because you're playing an ARPG, this concept might be foreign to you.

2. reflect is GOOD because it punishes players who do not pay attention to packs/rares and autopilot clear. these mechanics break the monotony of the game and force players to be aware of their surroundings and react accordingly (the same as bearers, etc)

3. reflect is GOOD because it presents a problem that needs to be solved, with tools available to solve them. As such, it provides meaningful choice of different methods of dealing with it. Again, players who dont like problem solving and making sacrifices, will make a choice of trying to ignore the problem as much as possible.

4. chaos isnt played because people hate reflect. it's played because it provides as much, if not more, raw power than elemental builds, has the most more multipliers to its supports aside from penetration, has very few monsters resistant to it, has auxiliary means of lowering chaos resists (ascendancies, wither totem) has very few map mods detrimental to health or clear speed, and yeah, no reflect.

again, let's go back to times when we had reflect auras in the game. a small population was playing voltaxic. it was in a good spot. with real reflect packs.


again, there isn't a single inherent reason as to why reflect is bad. people who love high dps might hate it, but who gives two shits ? theres never been a more dire time in NERF of raw dps than now.

1. I don't know exactly what you think is entitled about having high DPS at the cost of survivability. At its core, glassy styles are the most skill-intensive way to play the game, because manual hit avoidance is so much more important. If anything, your attitude feels like "I don't want the skill cap of the game to be higher than what I'm capable of." Which is a kind of entitlement itself.

Unavoidable damage is anti-skill.

2. Here I actually agree on the core premise: autopilot is bad. Of course that effects leech tanks far more than glass builds... But the thing is, the current implementation of reflect punishes builds which DO pay attention as well.

This is why I think Corrupted Blood is a MUCH better design for a reflect-ish mechanic. It scales off a DPS vector - that's good. But most importantly, if you pay attention you pop a flask and you're immune. Not resistant, immune.

I mean, I guess if "your Damage cannot be Reflected" was a flask affix I would be satisfied. But Corrupting Blood shows there's more creative ways to design reflect-ish mechanics than the outrageously basic version we see now.

3. Yeah, solve how? Either in theorycrafting (by making the character just tank it, which means it's not really a gameplay threat) or flask choice. That's about it, outside of an OP duration buff or two.

4. Actually agree here. But it's irrelevant to reflect discussion, really.

5. You say there's never been a better time to nerf raw DPS than now, but that's nonsense; it's already nerfed into the ground. There is no point is getting more DPS than needed to one-shot enemies, so if enemies are random Gorge speedrun trash then there's no need to have massive DPS. Going glass is stupid now, you can commit resources to tanking and still OHKO everything. I get what you're saying, that clearspeed is out of control, but your analysis of that situation is off.

I had to stop playing my icestorm due to reflect. One cast is death and i cant stop it. Maybe if only the first hit reflected it would be playable, but with the xp loss and % of reflect mobs i knew i wouldnt even make it to 90 without getting really mad.

Mobs last like 1 sec, reflect kills me in .1 secs.

Its like volatile blood and bearers, its a cheap difficulty mechanic. Mob does 0 damage then bam, one shot because you did what your supposed to in a game like this.

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Shppy a écrit :

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davidnn5 a écrit :

Total, arrant nonsense. No sparker plays with a voltaxic because it gives them better damage.

then it sounds like you don't understand voltaxic very well, because Poison gives voltaxic spark somewhere around a "161% more damage" modifier from a single support link, even if you don't get any increased skill duration. (It's around '307% more damage' if you grab 90% inc duration on the tree).


Yeah, a legit caster weapon's gonna have a hard time making up for that.

Spark oneshots white mobs anyway, so you're talking seconds per map for rares/boss. I'll revise my statement to 'no one but the most time-obsessed ladder-hungry people and/or Uber farmer' (though of course, again, chaos damage and not instantly dying to split phase is a pretty big thing).

Reflect is fine. You really don't "need" to be doing heinous amounts of damage in this game and honestly it shouldn't be rewarded.

This game being all about what build clears fastest is getting pretty boring. If you aren't clearing maps in 1-3 min you're doing it wrong? Methinks its a bad mindset that should somehow be squashed....

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davidnn5 a écrit :

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grepman a écrit :

4. chaos isnt played because people hate reflect. it's played because it provides as much, if not more, raw power than elemental builds, has the most more multipliers to its supports aside from penetration, has very few monsters resistant to it, has auxiliary means of lowering chaos resists (ascendancies, wither totem) has very few map mods detrimental to health or clear speed, and yeah, no reflect.

Total, arrant nonsense. No sparker plays with a voltaxic because it gives them better damage.

sure

they play volt because it allows them to ignore pretty much all the map mods. reflect is only one of these

and with all this double dipping flop GGG left in the game before going full chaos it is just the smart thing to do as the damage bonus it gives is VERY strong (strong enough that all the passives previously used for damage can be used for other stuff instead)


reflect is good. it makes builds more than one dimensional and forces people to think for a second (or reroll maps). vaal pact generally removes reflect from the discussion anyway

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sidtherat a écrit :

vaal pact generally removes reflect from the discussion anyway

That, to me, is the problem. Reflect and danger in general is a bit too binary in this game. The ideal design would be if players built up defenses because to not do so means being unable to do much in a high level map, not because of a monster (or map) affix.

In such a design approach, chaos wouldn't need to exist (it actually surprised me and no doubt many others to see a 'chaos resistance' line when I first started playing).