10 Reasons Why We All Play Chaos Builds (Bump if You Hate Reflect)

"

lugaluga a écrit :

Agreed, a gem would be ideal - Physical Dissipate & Elemental Dissipate or whatever names.

Let us sacrifice a gem slot to completely negates the reflection.

There's already a gem to do that: Trap. And mine. And ranged attack totem/spell totem. And any premade versions of such mechanics. And minions... okay, there's already *lots* of gems to do that. Your unwillingness to use them doesn't change that fact.


But hey, I guess we can't all use more than 1 button to play the game.






As far as reasons to use chaos goes, there's really only two main reasons:

1) avoid reflect

2) abuse poison double-dipping.


-Penetrating energy shield is meh, most enemies don't have much of it anyway.

-Atziri being able to be poisoned isn't really a 'reason to use chaos', physical can poison too, it just can't abuse double-dipping as well (and if it wasn't for double-dipping, poison would simply be a different take on added fire and whatnot). Besides that, atziri's clones can be hit by ailments; if you're having trouble with her solo phase with anything that isn't an ignite build, you probably have bigger issues than ailments.

-Poison stacks, not chaos DoT. And poison is designed around being able to stack, there's no sense in trying to compare it to ignite/bleed or suggesting that stacking makes it superior; they have different priorities.

-'Some of the best weapons in the game are set up for chaos damage'... no they're not. If it weren't for them offering chaos conversion, they wouldn't merit a second glance. Consuming Dark is mediocre without chaos conversion (even if it still let chaos poison naturally) and Voltaxic is a 250 eDPS bow at best with no crit. It's not a case of 'some of the best weapons in the game are set up for chaos damage', it's 'because chaos conversion+poison is too strong, a couple of chaos conversion weapons have become the best weapons in the game'.



Avoiding reflect is valid reason to use chaos, but mostly meh. Lotsa lazy people like it cuz they can stick with their brainless 1-button builds instead of using actual tactics.

However, double-dipping is ridiculous, and the primary reason chaos (especially conversion) is used right now. If it were about the reflect, Consuming Dark and Voltaxic woulda been all the rage back in 2.0 (after voltaxic got easier to find, but before poison was changed). Thank god it's supposed to get nerfed in 2.3, it's about time.

"

grepman a écrit :

I've tried to find a single argument in your post as to why reflect is inherently bad.

I couldn't find one besides that you don't like it.

Then you didn't read it entirely or didn't understand what you read but thanks for the bump, troll.

"

lugaluga a écrit :

Agreed, a gem would be ideal - Physical Dissipate & Elemental Dissipate or whatever names.

Let us sacrifice a gem slot to completely negates the reflection.

I like that idea as a solution. That'd at least give us an option of negating it.

Even a few new mods for rares that would allow some percentage of mitigation. E.g., a "Prevent x% of elemental damage reflection" mod on a rare two-stone ring.

"

Shppy a écrit :

There's already a gem to do that: Trap. And mine. And ranged attack totem/spell totem. And any premade versions of such mechanics. And minions... okay, there's already *lots* of gems to do that. Your unwillingness to use them doesn't change that fact.

But hey, I guess we can't all use more than 1 button to play the game.

But hey, looks like someone never plays melee skills, stop and think before you lecture other people.

"

CentauriSoldier a écrit :

"

grepman a écrit :

I've tried to find a single argument in your post as to why reflect is inherently bad.

I couldn't find one besides that you don't like it.

Then you didn't read it entirely or didn't understand what you read but thanks for the bump, troll.
.

I dont troll. again - I've read your post completely and it never said why reflect is bad.

please point me in the exact sentence in this first post of yours where you point out WHY reflect is inherently bad:

"

Reflect sucks!
Please remove it from the game so can all play physical and elemental builds again. You guys have been pushing reflect form the start. People (myself included) hated the reflect shrines in Domination League so bad and we're happy to see those removed and the group reflect removed as well. But the fact is, reflect is still OP as fuck and kills anyone daring to do the required damage for clearing end-game maps.

So, until reflect gets fixed or goes away entirely, people like me are just going to find a way to avoid it all together using chaos builds. Especially since there are many advantages and no disadvantages to playing with chaos skills over elemental and physical skills.

I'm sure there are plenty more reasons than those I've listed and I'm also certain that there are some viable non-chaos builds but not very many.

if you cannot, you just lied and insulted me in one sentence.

"

lugaluga a écrit :

But hey, looks like someone never plays melee skills, stop and think before you lecture other people.

I almost *exclusively* play melee builds... the only build i've done this league that wasn't melee was the trapper i led off the league with (that i only got to like lvl 75 with, cuz by then i had the currency built up to make something more fun, i.e. a melee). Hell the only character i have left undeleted right now is the character i got the highest in this league, the Jack+Varunastra viperstriker I handled all the challenges with, but among the others were a Marohi Flickerstriker and a Dory's Fist Icecrash-CoMK-Discharger.

I don't struggle with reflect on them. I reroll maps that have the wrong type of reflect if i must, I use ancestral protector, I use tertiary skills either with less extreme damage or (in the case of physical-based characters facing physical reflect) elemental conversion, i pop defensive flasks. I show some restraint and consideration when i have to, it's not that much to expect.

grepman, reflect is bad because we hate it and because it sucks :)

"

silumit a écrit :

grepman, reflect is bad because we hate it and because it sucks :)

That too :P.

"

Shppy a écrit :

There's already a gem to do that: Trap. And mine. And ranged attack totem/spell totem. And any premade versions of such mechanics. And minions... okay, there's already *lots* of gems to do that. Your unwillingness to use them doesn't change that fact.

Traps, Mines and Totems are specialized Skills/Supports that require node selection on the tree. They do not solve the problem for self-casting and self-attacking builds who do not specialize in any of these three things. The person suggesting a support gem was suggesting it precisely for self-casters/attackers. Think before you post, man.

"

grepman a écrit :

I dont troll. again - I've read your post completely and it never said why reflect is bad.

please point me in the exact sentence in this first post of yours where you point out WHY reflect is inherently bad:


if you cannot, you just lied and insulted me in one sentence.

Since you seem to be having trouble with reading comprehension, I'll read between the lines for you.

1. "But the fact is, reflect is still OP as fuck and kills anyone daring to do the required damage for clearing end-game maps."

This means that there is a lot of content that requires high DPS to clear and by having high enough DPS to clear that content with phys/ele builds, you get killed on reflects. It is not balanced properly.

2. "...people like me are just going to find a way to avoid it all together using chaos builds."

It drives us to play one style of build (chaos) and deters us from playing other styles that include phys/ele skills.

Hope that helps. Maybe take a little time to digest what you read next time before you just blurt out, "I don't understand"! Thanks again for the bump :). All future trolling regarding this matter will be ignored.

"

Shppy a écrit :

I don't struggle with reflect on them. I reroll maps that have the wrong type of reflect if i must, I use ancestral protector, I use tertiary skills either with less extreme damage or (in the case of physical-based characters facing physical reflect) elemental conversion, i pop defensive flasks. I show some restraint and consideration when i have to, it's not that much to expect.

Running away from reflect maps is your choice, but there are people that prefer not to do that. You can't just tell them to not providing ideas how GGG can solve problems for players.

I personally think a gem that negates reflect is reasonable, even if it means to have "-% reduced damage" on it.

"

grepman a écrit :

Since you seem to be having trouble with reading comprehension, I'll read between the lines for you.

1. "But the fact is, reflect is still OP as fuck and kills anyone daring to do the required damage for clearing end-game maps."
This means that there is a lot of content that requires high DPS to clear and by having high enough DPS to clear that content with phys/ele builds, you get killed on reflects. It is not balanced properly.

this is simply not true. nothing aside T15 maps and uber atziri REQUIRE high dps. no-thing. you tell me a map and I probably have a toon with shit gear and suboptimal build that can easily clear it.

"

2. "...people like me are just going to find a way to avoid it all together using chaos builds."
It drives us to play one style of build and deters us from playing other styles that include phys/ele skills.

this goes against your point in #1, because if chaos is nerfed into oblivion, you just said you require a high DPS so no one would use chaos. you have bad contradictions in your highly fallacious logic. even ignoring that, again, pigeonholing happens all the time in PoE. when we had reflect PACKS, no one played chaos (again, going against your point in #1) and there was a choice of what to do about reflect, just like the usual choices of hit point pool/defense/etc. now theres no such choice.

"

Hope that helps. Maybe take a little time to digest what you read next time before you just blurt out, "I don't understand"! Thanks again for the bump :).

you seem to enjoy being condescending, but its YOUR logic that is fallacious. you can have as many bumps as you want because I'll have a few posts which logically will break down as to why reflect is good and mostly hated by entitled players who think they have to have a bazillion dps.

"

CentauriSoldier a écrit :

Traps, Mines and Totems are specialized Skills/Supports that require node selection on the tree. They do not solve the problem for self-casting and self-attacking builds who do not specialize in any of these three things. The person suggesting a support gem was suggesting it precisely for self-casters/attackers. Think before you post, man.

I did think before I posted, I've used most of those tactics before to deal with reflect at one point or another on self-cast/attack characters without speccing at all for their specific mechanics; if you're just using them for anti-reflect/utility, you don't need to grab their specials.


-I've used ancestral protector a lot this league when necessary, be it a standalone or with supports. Even cleared a couple phys reflect maps with a linked version. I'm looking forward to ancestral warchief too, because it'll probably be even more reasonable to use them to clear reflect maps if i run into them.

-I've used various traps on casters (lightning trap, most commonly, but a few custom ones as well, ice nova and cold snap most notably). I've also used blast rain/rain of arrows traps, vaal burning arrow traps, and puncture traps on archers.


-I've used ranged attack totems with GMP-ice shot on archers (my challenge-completing character in Talisman used those, I loved em. Good supporting damage, nice fallback for reflect, and consistent chilled ground is great for defense, especially against bosses). I even cleared many maps (both ele and phys reflect) with them if i had to. Haven't used too many spell totems as anti-reflect on self-casters though, i usually use them with summon skelies and go with traps for anti-reflect.


-At times I've let well-linked golems handle reflect rares, maybe while i help out with restrained self-used skills, though i totally wouldn't rely on that for entire maps.


Mines are about the only one of those tactics I haven't used, largely because they felt clunky. But after playing around with fire nova mine + minefield, I definitely could see using them as an anti-reflect setup on an elemental aoe caster.



So yeah, I'm not the one to complain to about dealing with reflect on self-casters/attackers, I've enjoyed taking many approaches to handling it.