Melee is the worst bullshit ever in poe

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Morgoth2356 a écrit :

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

that is why I don't play in a HC league.

Highlighted the portion illustrating why your opinion is not at all relevant in discussions involving character survivability (IE, all melee discussions).

That's such a lame argument, if it was called on you you would have been full "nice ad hominem no data full subjective attack gg can we go back to relevant things now ?". You have no duelists on your HC character sheet, but you're talking about duelists' survivability in HC all the time, how is that possible (or maybe it is one of your conveniently "deleted but still have videos proofs" characters) ? You seem to die in HC all the time ("not my fault wtf GGG"), still you're speaking about survivability all the time ?

Unlike you I don't think these DATA concerning you are relevant at all when it comes to the value of your opinions in discussions like this one. If it was the case, people could not say a thing about a bad dish served to them in a dining restaurant even if they are not fine cooks or say that a football player had a "bad game" or things like that even when they can't play football for example. You don't have the prerogative to give entrance tickets to who is supposed to have a relevant opinion here and who is not.

You're right, it is a lame argument, frankly I'm just trying to get goetz to go away because I already know he's wrong and is just wasting time and space on this thread.

If you don't believe I delete characters all the time, there's plenty of evidence going around. Multiple QQ threads about deaths with characters you don't see on my sheet, a picture antnee posted weeks ago with a completely different character layout, and the MisterKnife build thread illustrating videos and images of prior iterations of the primary build I work on (MisterKnife). I've only recently started keeping 70+ characters around for respecs to mess around with at the start of new leagues before I reroll on the new ladders, but at the moment that amounts to 1 character (ThePlaje). The rest are all new, and I won't ever do this with MisterKnife (tm) because I have to reroll that name on the new ladder. Still deciding whether to delete Swollverine.

As far as the data, what I do and don't play has no bearing whatsoever on the state of duelist on the ladder. Any idiot who hasn't even played POE before can look at bloodlines ladder and the 15k graphics and tell you what classes not to pick. And then they can look at the tree, weapon choices, and gems for duelist, and tell you duelist is a melee-specific class. Ergo, it stands to reason that melee is not performing well as the only melee-specific class is in the absolute dumpster right now.

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You're right, it is a lame argument, frankly I'm just trying to get goetz to go away because I already know he's wrong and is just wasting time and space on this thread.

As far as the data, what I do and don't play has no bearing whatsoever on the state of duelist on the ladder. Any idiot who hasn't even played POE before can look at bloodlines ladder and the 15k graphics and tell you what classes not to pick.

So I am wrong therefore don't have an opinion on anything in this game. I'll just stop buying supporter packs because I don't want to support a game with cancerous people like you.

Your right in SC you can make more mistakes and a build can work without as much strict guidelines. However, saying someones opinions aren't worth anything simply because they play in SC isn't valid either, doesn't matter the reasoning.

As far as what you do and don't play (and what I do for that matter) has no effect on state of duelist on the ladder, if you want to use this as your only source of validation for melee, then of course your results will be skewed and make melee look even worst then it actually is. Again you come back to the same thing which is that duelist = melee and no one is playing the class on the ladder.

Of course I could tell you that might simply be because other classes now have much better starting areas compared to him, even if going a melee build. But please go ahead and make your assumptions based on your limited data that you have and present it as fact for more people. You never actually address anything just go back to duelist = melee and there aren't any duelist in the ladder.

I specifically asked you to create me a build that uses the duelist starting area that wouldn't be better starting from one of the other classes and you failed the challenge (as I suspect you will in this patch) as they completely fucked up the starting area of the duelist. It honestly has nothing to do with the fact melee is bad or whatever excuse you want to come up with it is that 1.3 doesn't cater to a duelist start for anything.

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goetzjam a écrit :

He just is out of ideas when I came up and discussed every one of his points, so he simply tries to change the subject to me rather then duelist or melee.

Your "points" are all terrible, I just don't feel like listening to it any more.

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Your "points" are all terrible, I just don't feel like listening to it any more.

I just replied to you above, ignore it if you want, but don't bash me because I disagree with you that's just ignorant.

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goetzjam a écrit :

So I am wrong therefore don't have an opinion on anything in this game. I'll just stop buying supporter packs because I don't want to support a game with cancerous people like you.

Your right in SC you can make more mistakes and a build can work without as much strict guidelines. However, saying someones opinions aren't worth anything simply because they play in SC isn't valid either, doesn't matter the reasoning.

Opinions are worth nothing to begin with. I'm not sure why you people seem to have trouble with this concept. Anyone can have any stupid opinion, a million people can all have the wrong opinion, and one person out of a billion can have the only right one (with regards to reality). It's all perspective.

What's not perspective, is data. Data is objective. Your opinions are entirely subjective and not relevant at all.

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What's not perspective, is data. Data is objective. Your opinions are entirely subjective and not relevant at all.

Neither is anything you presented. The only thing you presented that was fact is not a lot of duelist at top of ladder, what isn't FACT is that duelist = melee, therefore melee is unbalanced/unplayable. GGG doesn't limit the use of skills to classes and please don't respond about efficiency or design because unless you have all the data GGG has then you don't have but the one (and only) leg to stand on.

Fact: not many duelist on top of the bloodlines ladder

Every single other thing you have mentioned in this thread is opinion, therefore no one should take it as anything other then that.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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What's not perspective, is data. Data is objective. Your opinions are entirely subjective and not relevant at all.

Neither is anything you presented. The only thing you presented that was fact is not a lot of duelist at top of ladder, what isn't FACT is that duelist = melee, therefore melee is unbalanced/unplayable. GGG doesn't limit the use of skills to classes and please don't respond about efficiency or design because unless you have all the data GGG has then you don't have but the one (and only) leg to stand on.

Fact: not many duelist on top of the bloodlines ladder

Every single other thing you have mentioned in this thread is opinion, therefore no one should take it as anything other then that.

Duelist has by far the best and most abundant dual wield nodes in the game. I don't know what else to tell you besides that to convince you that it is a melee class. That is, in fact, a fact.

Maybe the reason you think duelist is so shit is because dual wield is terrible? I've theorycrafted plenty of 2W builds and on every one of them I wish I could reach duelist area because it's so much more efficient for 2W and has some really awesome nodes (master of the arena, dervish, blade barrier, twin terrors, art of the gladiator, studious combatant, blade master), all with effects you can't get anywhere else on the tree. But it's so far from shadow I just can't get to it and still be efficient. If I had even HALF those nodes in the shadow area I would die via nerdgasm.

As a shadow you get some really broken nodes, but also some total shit nodes like nullification and void barrier, which are completely fucking useless to anyone except level 80 characters wearing shavs.

This thread got derailed.
Melee is at disadvantage, compared to ranged. Whoever doubt at this is a noob/stupid/inexperienced, pick one.
Melee could be sick OP, backed up with uber items, like no ranged can.
Though, melee could still fail geared as fuck, due to unpredictable damage spikes, heavy chaos damage, content surprises and OH SHIT! moments, which ranged suffer much less from, fighting from distance. Avoiding some of game engine flaws as well.
Melee is on bad spot early-mid-ealry/lategame.
Melee is good at long run in permanent leagues.
Phys melee is worst for a fresh start, as it's gear dependent.
Melee needs badly specific bonuses which apply to melee only.

According to Duelist - no other class can brake 2.5k HP in cruel, dressed in rigs, without sacrificing damage. Duelist isn't bad, he's actually the best pure classic S&B class. No matter 1h, 2h, or DW. His problems start up with merci difficulty up to infinity not because of the class, but because he's melee centered in the middle of shits, followed by gear requirements and all of the disadvantages melee class brings. It's related with item drops/customization either, but it's definitely a point of another conversation.

A great part of the maras and templars in new leagues, that represent some statistics showed up on forum, are actually ranged/casters, that use to take advantage on high HP increase and other tasty nodes, supposed to be used as melee.

Duelist isn't bad and melee needs help in general.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Technically melee hasn't always been inferior or not looked that way at least. In closed beta they didn't have perm allocation, which meant being in melee gave you a better chance to get your items. BoR was better, which made having a build that used a 6 link for cheap good. Quite a few changes like new skill gems (spec throw, flameblast, arc, ect) have all been added\buffed to make melee skills less desirable.

Still haven't heard a single way to fix melee just random ideas that work in other ARPG's that won't work in PoE.

I was at closed beta and ranged has always been better in terms of overall survivability and damage. I don't consider that bad looting system (FFA) to be a good way to balance those two playstyles. But that's because I have always been against FFA and for permanent allocation.

There are ways that GGG can balance those playstyles that they really haven't taken advantage of yet. Two simple ways are Buffing melee weapons and buffing melee nodes on the tree. Right now ranged weapons and nodes are really just as good.

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Duelist has by far the best and most abundant dual wield nodes in the game. I don't know what else to tell you besides that to convince you that it is a melee class. That is, in fact, a fact.

So after reviewing some changes I noticed they removed the starting path for DUAL wielding, which means that you no longer need to take those nodes (because they aren't there) in order to to make a good dual wield build. Yes the duelist has the best nodes, but there position allows for ranger or marauder to just as easily access them depending on what path you want to take.

In regards to dual wielding in general yes it got nerfed with the block nodes in the tree, this probably can be changed in order to allow for more block for dual wielding only (melee users) but not able to be exploited by those simply stacking block.

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Maybe the reason you think duelist is so shit is because dual wield is terrible? I've theorycrafted plenty of 2W builds and on every one of them I wish I could reach duelist area because it's so much more efficient for 2W and has some really awesome nodes (master of the arena, dervish, blade barrier, twin terrors, art of the gladiator, studious combatant, blade master), all with effects you can't get anywhere else on the tree. But it's so far from shadow I just can't get to it and still be efficient. If I had even HALF those nodes in the shadow area I would die via nerdgasm.

It really depends on your goal, I think dual wield in general is bad, I've seen some good builds with it, but in the game of clearspeed>surviability dual wield falls behind. Its kinda funny you mention how far the duelist is for a shadow, you know there is a class in-between that was made for the ability to get nodes from both areas. Perhaps start as a ranger and go into the duelist area and if you want grab some of those shadow nodes. When you want to travel across another class to get nodes on the other side (from a starting class) then this is an indicator that you should be starting in the class in-between most of the time from an efficiency standpoint.

You talk about a build, but don't link a tree or anything more, just talk. I can't offer reasoning on why or why not I would do it that way if you don't link it.

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As a shadow you get some really broken nodes, but also some total shit nodes like nullification and void barrier and melding, which are completely fucking useless to anyone except level 80 characters wearing shavs (melding is pretty trash regardless of who you are

Why the hell are we talking about shadow, when you brought up melee and more specifically duelist.

As for @iamstryker

Closed beta wasn't always FFA, they had temp allocation. A bad looting system encouraged players to play melee, not saying it was a good idea for balance, just saying it somehow worked a bit.

Melee weapons can be used with skills like spectral throw, so no you can't buff a weapon and ranged not abuse it in some form or factor. In regards to melee nodes, that I think is the direction they should go, no reason why the duelist should have this shitty new start with 10% melee damage nodes and odd wheel to get to the good stuff in the middle.

I personally say super buff the melee damage nodes for a league and let everyone play melee with the additional damage. BoR made melee popular back in invasion, we see that has been nerfed twice (which I disagree with)


Ultimately play what you want, but don't come crying to the forums when you have to be "more careful" by playing melee.