PoE is stacked against the solo player

I was saying that group play already has strong incentives in the form of party synergy and safety. Being able to specialize is a humongous advantage over the solo player. Increased safety is, much like specialization, just an inherent factor of party play. Short of making AI that seeks out the most dangerous damage dealers (and ignores the least dangerous), this isn't going to be fixed.

The only thing GGG needs to do is make sure they're not completely out of whack versus solo. If specialization makes the party do 10x more damage, then it's going to be hard to balance enemy life. If safety makes the party take 10x less damage, then it's going to be hard to balance enemy damage. This is where GGG can twiddle settings like "enemy hp related to party size".

Neither of these things are something that GGG are purposefully enforcing or incentivizing, nor should they. They only need to make sure that the game is not orders of magnitude easier when partying than solo or vice versa. It's fine to be a little biased in one direction or the other since it's a really tough problem to solve mathematically and an approximation will do just fine.

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On the other hand, map splitting is as much a problem now as it used to be. The map costs did drop globally (as maps became more accessible due to strongboxes and otherwise), but that's not the end of it. Even if the maps themselves are free, the solo player must spend comparatively much more to roll those maps than party players.

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I don't think that GGG should go out of their way to reward the effort involved in "finding the right people, setting the correct pace, waiting on people to afk". If people want to play in groups (because they made a specialist build for their own reasons), then that's their decision. If the find the right group, they do well. If they find the wrong group, they do badly.

I could rant and rave about how unhealthy it is that recent online RPGs display other players as little more than NPCS that grant exp and drop boosters, but that's a different topic for a different time.

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pneuma a écrit :

I was saying that group play already has strong incentives in the form of party synergy and safety. Being able to specialize is a humongous advantage over the solo player. Increased safety is, much like specialization, just an inherent factor of party play. Short of making AI that seeks out the most dangerous damage dealers (and ignores the least dangerous), this isn't going to be fixed.

The only thing GGG needs to do is make sure they're not completely out of whack versus solo. If specialization makes the party do 10x more damage, then it's going to be hard to balance enemy life. If safety makes the party take 10x less damage, then it's going to be hard to balance enemy damage. This is where GGG can twiddle settings like "enemy hp related to party size".

Neither of these things are something that GGG are purposefully enforcing or incentivizing, nor should they. They only need to make sure that the game is not orders of magnitude easier when partying than solo or vice versa. It's fine to be a little biased in one direction or the other since it's a really tough problem to solve mathematically and an approximation will do just fine.

I somewhat agree, but when you look at both extremes (perfectly composed party vs perfectly built solo character), there isn't that much of a power disparity. Both can breeze through content without difficulty, the party might only have more drops (didn't do the math but a party with an uber-geared culler probably has more/better drops per member than a solo guy) and an easier time with ridiculous damage mod combos (which occasionally saves them a chaos or two to reroll).

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pneuma a écrit :

On the other hand, map splitting is as much a problem now as it used to be. The map costs did drop globally (as maps became more accessible due to strongboxes and otherwise), but that's not the end of it. Even if the maps themselves are free, the solo player must spend comparatively much more to roll those maps than party players.

I actually meant both acquiring and rolling the maps. With maps being really cheap, you don't have to roll very specific affixes in order to maintain your map pool. You can really get away with alch & run most of the time. Groups of course have an advantage here, but it became a rather small one.

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Xavderion a écrit :

Because if good groups would have the same efficiency as a good solo player, there would be no incentive to group.

There is, player's preference of playing, either with friends or solo.
This is once again, a forced situation upon players, just like the rerolling characters being one of the best things in PoE, while main reasons for player's rerolling are either shitty map drops or fusing gone wrong.

People would play in groups because they like it, not because it's incredibly more efficient to do so, at least in most cases.

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Maybe, but top level maps concern maybe 0.1% of the playerbase. Saying solo play sucks because it struggles at super-endgame while it's perfectly viable (and often better) for 99.9% of the time is an exaggeration.

That was only an example when solo play has nothing over party play. Stay concentrated.
Reminder of the safety in numbers, especially the auras. And no, it's nowhere near your 99.9% of the time.
If that was like you're saying it is, people would hardly ever party up, just stop already, the situation speaks for itself.

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The certain point being level 90+ which is the whole game for 99.9% of the player base.

Again, stay concentrated. I've said viable. It's still a lot better in party play before that certain point, in most cases.

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Your personal RNG doesn't matter, just look at the market prices of maps (which represent the average RNG of all players) and you'll realize map drops were hugely buffed. I lol'd at your attempt to belittle my experience, while your highest Ambush character (Ambush being the league with the huge map buffs) is 79 :P

Yes it does matter, I have my own map drops, which may or may not be like yours. The market prices are due to the carto boxes, which have a global impact on the prices, individually not so much at all.
For me, map drops were nerfed when maze/larger mods were removed. It does matter.
I'm repeating myself and I have no idea why... That map drop buff has made my leveling process a lot more expensive, that is due to the incredible amount of RNG.

I'm not belittling your experience, having a higher level character means only that a player spent more time playing, and you've probably done around 2% of total maps that I've ran, which is why I'm saying that RNG stuff and our experiences in map drops differing.

It's 79 level because I haven't played a lot, obviously. 3 reasons, horrible graphic performance getting worse with each patch, shitty strongbox lag which has never been addressed so far (at least I've never seen it being) and I couldn't get to 70 maps out of my 150+ 68/69's, there's your map drop buff.

Standard league is also present, without that huge map drop buff, yet you never mention it, I can see why.

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So this means solo is better most of the time, maps don't get expensive until you have top end maps (even then you could probably get away with alch and run or maybe using a handful of chaos), and to have better soloing than partying you need a good solo build. Who would've thought x)

No, solo can be better overall only until mapping starts being expensive under certain conditions, which have already being sad earlier.

And if it's most of the time like you say, I repeat (again), people wouldn't party up most of the time.

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As mentioned before, due to the map drop buffs map cost is non existant most of the time.

Again, map cost mostly doesn't matter anymore.

Ambush is not the only league and map cost is nowhere near non-existent.
It still costs 1+ ex per hours to run 75+ maps, scale that down to the lower levels and lets say, ~1 ex per 3 hours playing 71-74 maps. That is nowhere near being non-existent, especially when players that play those lower level maps aren't rich, in most of the cases of course.

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No u. Your experience with end game is outdated, solo play got a huge buff in many ways and is now overall equally viable to party play.

Really? because I've done 70+ maps in the last week, in Ambush, and I got few 70's.
You are absolutely right.

I will say this once and for all, if solo play is equally viable to party play, a huge majority of players wouldn't even party at all. At least not in the current rate, they would probably map sometimes with their friends, just like I would.

It will never be equal to party play when there is safety in numbers in the current situation, even if we disregard the mapping cost, which we shouldn't.
Not to mention the MF in the current ranged-melee situation also.

Your point is nowhere near being backed up by reality, and that's why you should seriously stop glorifying solo play because it simply sucks compared to the party play, in most cases.

Like I've said, the only case where solo play is better than group play is when you have a character that has very high MF, high survivability and high clear speed, and that can only be achieved with ranged characters.
And that's before leveling starts being super expensive, when it gets, even that character is better off in group play.

I love solo playing and playing with my friend but it seriously frustrates me in every part. In the current situation no matter what i do, i run out of higher level maps, they just dont drop for me. I'm down to like 2 Level 72s, rest 70 or below which is no motivation at all since i can easily run 78s.
The only chance for me to run those on the other hand are parties, bossruns were never profitable.

In my opinion soloplay stopped between level 70 and 75.
People play in groups because they are forced to do so, they get the feeling that at least some stuff drops, even if they dont get it. They are forced to play in groups because they run out of maps.

Now there was my thought to regather some higher level maps by doing free map parties but then again, no map drops or lower ones.

#edit
Breakdown of my 140% Lvl 70 Map Run
1x Arsenal Lvl 67
1x Mountain Ledge Lvl 67
1x Dunes Lvl 66
1x Spider Forest Lvl 69

Thats how it goes for months

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tinko92 a écrit :

There is, player's preference of playing, either with friends or solo.
This is once again, a forced situation upon players, just like the rerolling characters being one of the best things in PoE, while main reasons for player's rerolling are either shitty map drops or fusing gone wrong.

People would play in groups because they like it, not because it's incredibly more efficient to do so, at least in most cases.

Nothing is forced upon anyone when soloing is viable, which it is. Main reason for rerolling is because it's fun to play something different. Grouping is not 'incredibly more efficient', not even close.

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tinko92 a écrit :

That was only an example when solo play has nothing over party play. Stay concentrated.
Reminder of the safety in numbers, especially the auras. And no, it's nowhere near your 99.9% of the time.
If that was like you're saying it is, people would hardly ever party up, just stop already, the situation speaks for itself.

So that's your argument? Because some people party up, party play is better than solo play? Following your logic, solo play is better than party play because some people are soloing. I hope you realize how silly your argument is :P

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tinko92 a écrit :

Again, stay concentrated. I've said viable. It's still a lot better in party play before that certain point, in most cases.

No, it isn't. In most cases soloing is better with a dedicated solo build. Grouping is only better in a good group. Which most random groups aren't.

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tinko92 a écrit :

Yes it does matter, I have my own map drops, which may or may not be like yours. The market prices are due to the carto boxes, which have a global impact on the prices, individually not so much at all.
For me, map drops were nerfed when maze/larger mods were removed. It does matter.
I'm repeating myself and I have no idea why... That map drop buff has made my leveling process a lot more expensive, that is due to the incredible amount of RNG.

If you don't participate on the market to counter bad RNG, that's your own fault. Maps are much less expensive for everyone, you just need to not gimp yourself.

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tinko92 a écrit :

I'm not belittling your experience, having a higher level character means only that a player spent more time playing, and you've probably done around 2% of total maps that I've ran, which is why I'm saying that RNG stuff and our experiences in map drops differing.

It's 79 level because I haven't played a lot, obviously. 3 reasons, horrible graphic performance getting worse with each patch, shitty strongbox lag which has never been addressed so far (at least I've never seen it being) and I couldn't get to 70 maps out of my 150+ 68/69's, there's your map drop buff.

Standard league is also present, without that huge map drop buff, yet you never mention it, I can see why.

Your experience is outdated, that's also the reason why I don't mention standard league, it has no strongboxes. And again you're arguing with your RNG, which is pointless for obvious reasons. Game isn't balanced around your RNG, but the average RNG of all players.

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tinko92 a écrit :

No, solo can be better overall only until mapping starts being expensive under certain conditions, which have already being sad earlier.

And if it's most of the time like you say, I repeat (again), people wouldn't party up most of the time.

My point was that mapping is never really expensive in Ambush, which makes solo pretty much always viable. People also aren't partying most of the time, don't know where you get that from. There are plenty of solo players. Or people who party because they like to play with friends, not because of efficiency.

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tinko92 a écrit :

Ambush is not the only league and map cost is nowhere near non-existent.
It still costs 1+ ex per hours to run 75+ maps, scale that down to the lower levels and lets say, ~1 ex per 3 hours playing 71-74 maps. That is nowhere near being non-existent, especially when players that play those lower level maps aren't rich, in most of the cases of course.

It's way less than that, assuming you can sustain the maps and run most map mods it's maybe a quarter of that, which is basically non-existant. Sometimes you won't be able to sustain them, but you won't lose much when that happens. A lvl 74 map is 1c. It only starts getting expensive with high-end maps, but I already said that in this case groups have an advantage (again, if they're good).

I support tinkos opinion and call Xavderion very ignorant and selfish, just my opinion.
I mean, take a look at his arguments

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Main reason for rerolling is because it's fun to play something different.

Main reason for rerolling is to get higher quantity or remove mods you cant play/consider anoying.

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Following your logic, solo play is better than party play because some people are soloing.

I cant find the words to express how rediculus this is, "Because some people party up, party play is better than solo play?" wasnt what he was saying and he was right about that.

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In most cases soloing is better with a dedicated solo build. Grouping is only better in a good group.

Solo is in like 99% never better, grouping is as good as always better since the bad players filter out and every good solo build is a good party build aswell. The only deciding party build is an MF build.

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If you don't participate on the market to counter bad RNG, that's your own fault.

Excuse me, am i playing Diablo 3? RNG should be fine for everyone and trading should be an addition regarding maps.

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There are plenty of solo players. Or people who party because they like to play with friends, not because of efficiency.

In which world are you living? Who would want to play with randoms if it isnt more profitable?
Who would bother to find good groups if it wouldnt be more profitable?
Pretty sure most of the people would just party up with Friends they know.

I party with friends when they are online. I play solo when none are on or they are playing in different leagues or levels.

Solo is just as viable as party play. I move just as fast if not faster playing solo. I get more loot playing solo, unless we are playing with a magic find culler. And when we do, we clear slower to make sure the culler gets the last hit. So it's a trade off, slower experience for more loot. I've played in a lot of parties that move slower than I would be moving solo. I do it because I'm playing with friends, not because I get more experience (I don't).

I think you need to take the character builds more into account when making statements based on your anecdotal evidence. Sure, some builds will be better in a party. Not because a party is better, but because some builds aren't as effective. Some builds will be better solo. Not because solo is better, but because weaker party members slow them down and monsters have more life.

LAG and DESYNC or different things.

Dying because of lag can just as well be caused by something on your own end.

When people state they died because of desync I always wonder if that's true. And I always wonder if you would also have died without desync.

I hardly ever die because of desync, maybe you're just taking too much risk?

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DerPizzadieb a écrit :

I support tinkos opinion and call Xavderion very ignorant and selfish, just my opinion.

Of course you do, as you mentioned earlier your RNG sucks (or you suck at managing your maps, but I can't know that hehe).

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DerPizzadieb a écrit :

Main reason for rerolling is to get higher quantity or remove mods you cant play/consider anoying.

He was talking about rerolling characters, not maps.

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DerPizzadieb a écrit :

I cant find the words to express how rediculus this is, "Because some people party up, party play is better than solo play?" wasnt what he was saying and he was right about that.

It was his logic, not mine. It was exactly what he said.

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DerPizzadieb a écrit :

Solo is in like 99% never better, grouping is as good as always better since the bad players filter out and every good solo build is a good party build aswell. The only deciding party build is an MF build.

No. From my experience, most random groups are slow, people die too much and skip bosses all the time. The downtime where everyone sits in town forever is also huge. I'm usually better off soloing.

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DerPizzadieb a écrit :

Excuse me, am i playing Diablo 3? RNG should be fine for everyone and trading should be an addition regarding maps.

RNG is random, how can it be fine for everyone? If you don't like your RNG, you can easily circumvent it. Just don't be lazy.

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DerPizzadieb a écrit :

In which world are you living? Who would want to play with randoms if it isnt more profitable?
Who would bother to find good groups if it wouldnt be more profitable?
Pretty sure most of the people would just party up with Friends they know.

As mentioned before, people who want to get carried by the safety of group play. With a good solo build you don't need that and map much faster and more efficient overall.

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Xavderion a écrit :

If you don't participate on the market to counter bad RNG, that's your own fault. Maps are much less expensive for everyone, you just need to not gimp yourself.

I have participated, obviously.

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Your experience is outdated, that's also the reason why I don't mention standard league, it has no strongboxes. And again you're arguing with your RNG, which is pointless for obvious reasons. Game isn't balanced around your RNG, but the average RNG of all players.

Why is my experience outdated?
I need those 6 levels to be up to date like you? Hilarious ;)
That's right, but Standard exists, that's all I'll say.

Yes I am arguing with my own map drop luck, because that is my fucking map drop luck, your map drop luck means nothing to me on a local basis, it does have a global impact, which is the situation overall.
The map drop buff has never happened to me, it did however happened to most of other players which made my leveling cheaper.

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My point was that mapping is never really expensive in Ambush, which makes solo pretty much always viable. People also aren't partying most of the time, don't know where you get that from. There are plenty of solo players. Or people who party because they like to play with friends, not because of efficiency.

That depends where your game ends, if it ends in 85th level, then it's not that expensive. And yes, it's doable to get there solo in Ambush due to the low map prices in that range.

I get that from the game, not the forum, unlike you.

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It's way less than that, assuming you can sustain the maps and run most map mods it's maybe a quarter of that, which is basically non-existant. Sometimes you won't be able to sustain them, but you won't lose much when that happens. A lvl 74 map is 1c. It only starts getting expensive with high-end maps, but I already said that in this case groups have an advantage (again, if they're good).

Again, it's basically non-existent if your goal is ~80th level.


Anyway, as you can see, I've replied and haven't gone deep on any point, because you've conveniently ignored the last part of my last post which speaks for itself.