Feedback: RNG rerolling is not crafting, discuss

I agree we don't have crafting, we have gambling and that's fine. What isn't fine is people also want to have crafting and it could be successfully implemented if carefully dosed.

I guess the main criteria should be economy, this is an online game after all, no matter how much we hate the idea it must be a priority. Although my personal view is very strongly 'screw economy', that view could never be a valid guideline when making such changes.

So, in other words, we implement crafting in places where it won't influence economy.

1. Jeweling and fusing - yes
This is a 100% clear-cut case, we got a certain chance to roll a 6 slot and a 6 link, in a sample of the size of this community average orbs spent to do it would match the chance to roll it by tiniest decimals. Introducing a recipe here would make absolutely zero impact to global economy.
2% chance to roll a 5-link on a 6S chest? - great, 50 fusings to craft it if you please.
1,8% chance to roll a 5-link on a 5S chest? - that's 55 fusings for you, prettyboy

Of course if you don't have 50 fusings and you feel lucky you can always try to roll it. And this is good, you got two options, both equally efficient and completely down to personal preference with no effects on economy either way, can't really ask for more.

2. Crafting godly endgame gear - essentially no
This one is dangerous, if handled incorrectly it can easily flood the realm with godly items. However it could be handled by limiting roll range, like this:
exalted orb (or augment if blue, or regal if rolling magic to rare) + any red active gem = roll damage, life, life leech or strength, but only on range of iLevel/2
exalted orb + any purity skill gem = roll a random elemental resist at iLevel/2, if you already have that resist nothing happens

This way you would be able to skew rolls a bit but won't be able to roll high, so it would be easier to get decent gear but you'd need to take a riskier gamble for really awesome gear, farm for it or buy it. If I may say so, I like that purity recipe a lot, you'd be guaranteed to get some resist if you have none, but the more resist you got the less chance would you have to get another one, exactly the thing crafting should do - help you get that 'useable' level of gear.

And it's fine to flood the game with such gear, after all, Chris claims it's obtainable in two weeks self-found so anyone can farm it in a jiffie.

3. Transferring mods - yes and no
If done correctly, with proper restrictions, this could make the game much more forgiving when gearing up without destroying the economy. You dropped a good axe but you need a sword - no problem, I'll just paste this from some other thread

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Imagine you dropped an axe with
120% damage
15% attack speed
1-120 lightning damage
25% increased critical chance

Decent rolls for an axe, however they would be pretty awesome on a dagger or a wand.

So we take a reasonably rare 'orb of transplantation' and check the axe, itemlevel=72, so we need a dagger with item level 72 or higher.
Next, we check if the mods are compatible, daggers can roll all those so we're fine, however, if the axe also had +30 strength it would be impossible and the orb would not work, but it would be possible to transfer them to a sword, a scepter or a mace (they would be pretty great on a scepter too, and I noticed good scepters are even rarer than god daggers if at all possible).

Ok, so we spend an orb and get an awesome dagger in the process, destroying the axe irrevocably and sealing the mods to the dagger so they can't be transplanted again.

So, this would be a pretty good way to solve the problem about those equipment types that are hard to roll and the only impact on economy would be exactly the one I showed in the example, where a decent set of mods on one item became a great set of mods on another item type. Would there be some form of impact - yes, would it be significant - probably not if the orb is rare enough.

4. Duping items - HELL NO
Having an orb like that would be pretty dumb, to get the best equipment on the server you just need to be lucky enough and save some cash to pay the copying fee - voila! Top item is yours, no risk, no danger, it's all yours and legal as can be. It would also enable those that we fortunate enough to acquire such a duplication-worthy item to have a decent income without lifting a finger, which is also contrary to arpg spirit of sporty monster extermination for fun and profit.

Wait... do we already have an orb like that?

The definition of crafting is to attempt to make something in the world of video games.

Whenever or not the item is something you exactly wanted isn't the point, if the fact if something is produced or not.

When people talk about "crafting" they are talking about XYZ makes XYZ while some games do semi random or completely random results.

They are still crafting, if your 100% chance to make XYZ has a 50% to "fail" and you lose your mats you still tried crafting even if it produced nothing.

Whatever or not it's "RNG" rerolling doesn't matter, the real question is should we have many more options that involve not RNG rerolling?

Sure I completely agree with that, but the platform that "RNG rerolling isn't crafting" isn't a valid one because it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not as a valid form of crafting because it's already in the game and is used to produce something. It's more of the matter of is it acceptable to only have RNG rerolling as a main form of crafting.

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raics a écrit :

3. Transferring mods - yes and no
If done correctly, with proper restrictions, this could make the game much more forgiving when gearing up without destroying the economy. You dropped a good axe but you need a sword - no problem, I'll just paste this from some other thread

"

Imagine you dropped an axe with
120% damage
15% attack speed
1-120 lightning damage
25% increased critical chance

Decent rolls for an axe, however they would be pretty awesome on a dagger or a wand.

So we take a reasonably rare 'orb of transplantation' and check the axe, itemlevel=72, so we need a dagger with item level 72 or higher.
Next, we check if the mods are compatible, daggers can roll all those so we're fine, however, if the axe also had +30 strength it would be impossible and the orb would not work, but it would be possible to transfer them to a sword, a scepter or a mace (they would be pretty great on a scepter too, and I noticed good scepters are even rarer than god daggers if at all possible).

Ok, so we spend an orb and get an awesome dagger in the process, destroying the axe irrevocably and sealing the mods to the dagger so they can't be transplanted again.

So, this would be a pretty good way to solve the problem about those equipment types that are hard to roll and the only impact on economy would be exactly the one I showed in the example, where a decent set of mods on one item became a great set of mods on another item type. Would there be some form of impact - yes, would it be significant - probably not if the orb is rare enough.

I think it will be better to make an "base item reroll" orb. Fits RNG theme of other orbs :).

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RagnarokChu a écrit :

The definition of crafting is to attempt to make something in the world of video games.
<skipped>

Don't you see the difference between "something concrete (maybe with not 100% chance of success)" and "something that you have no bloody idea of"?

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silumit a écrit :

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RagnarokChu a écrit :

The definition of crafting is to attempt to make something in the world of video games.
<skipped>

Don't you see the difference between "something concrete (maybe with not 100% chance of success)" and "something that you have no bloody idea of"?

Why does it matter?

The game can have 1000 different flavors of crafting, having more options is better then debating whenever or not the current option can be called something or should be called something else because it really doesn't matter because it doesn't change anything if they suddenly changed crafting to "gambling". The form of crafting you want doesn't exist.

Also crafting in PoE isn't "something you have no bloody idea of" It is literally concrete with not a 100% chance of success of not what you want. Every orb follow an exact set of rolls on certain items that always roll certain mods out of a list of mods that you know the exact effect of. The thing with PoE is that you do not "create" items because you modify existing items which is still "crafting." But it isn't crafting as CREATING a certain mod or item on the item. Crafting the exact effect you want in this game is vendor recipe, which is what even other ARPGs/other called them because you craft using "plans/patterns/recipes".

All you doing here is apparently just smashing shiny orb objects into your stuff with an general idea of what it may do.

Hi

This game needs a better crafting sink, as the game is now players have gambling or trading as their sink.

I have suggested this before and I will suggest again:

POE introduces more recipes that can create specialized orbs(orbs that roll certain mods) These specialized orbs(hypothetical example could be created by taking 3-4 rares with the same mod+ stack of transmutations= specialized orb.) These orbs can then be further refined with higher lvl orbs to increase the potency of the mod.

This process would take a bit but at least if players really want to craft they can go this way and it gives POE another sink to wash in, personally I would take the time to do this instead of trading or gambling on my rolls.

The recipe could still be a little random by merely increasing the chances of getting the high tier mod rolls by using high tier orbs on the specialized orb so players aren't instantly rolling high tier mods.

cheers

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RagnarokChu a écrit :

The definition of crafting is to attempt to make something in the world of video games.

Whenever or not the item is something you exactly wanted isn't the point, if the fact if something is produced or not.

When people talk about "crafting" they are talking about XYZ makes XYZ while some games do semi random or completely random results.

They are still crafting, if your 100% chance to make XYZ has a 50% to "fail" and you lose your mats you still tried crafting even if it produced nothing.

Whatever or not it's "RNG" rerolling doesn't matter, the real question is should we have many more options that involve not RNG rerolling?

Sure I completely agree with that, but the platform that "RNG rerolling isn't crafting" isn't a valid one because it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not as a valid form of crafting because it's already in the game and is used to produce something. It's more of the matter of is it acceptable to only have RNG rerolling as a main form of crafting.

By your logic, killing monsters = crafting because it produces items.

By your logic, visiting the vendors = crafting because you can spend currency or level up to produce items.

Nope

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

There's this thing called power creep.

yup

want to see what power creep looks like?



that ain't no rare or crafted item bro

the entire orb system is based on crafting

if you think crafting should be shit Slayer, then basically you are saying orbs should be shit

i disagree. orbs should not be shit, they should be good.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

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RagnarokChu a écrit :

The definition of crafting is to attempt to make something in the world of video games.

Whenever or not the item is something you exactly wanted isn't the point, if the fact if something is produced or not.

When people talk about "crafting" they are talking about XYZ makes XYZ while some games do semi random or completely random results.

They are still crafting, if your 100% chance to make XYZ has a 50% to "fail" and you lose your mats you still tried crafting even if it produced nothing.

Whatever or not it's "RNG" rerolling doesn't matter, the real question is should we have many more options that involve not RNG rerolling?

Sure I completely agree with that, but the platform that "RNG rerolling isn't crafting" isn't a valid one because it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not as a valid form of crafting because it's already in the game and is used to produce something. It's more of the matter of is it acceptable to only have RNG rerolling as a main form of crafting.

By your logic, killing monsters = crafting because it produces items.

By your logic, visiting the vendors = crafting because you can spend currency or level up to produce items.

Nope

You know that is not how logic works right? We already have two events for killing monsters and buying from vendors which are getting "item drops" and "buying from npcs." Walking, running, and sprinting aren't the same thing although they all involve moving at a speed with your leg. They don't overwrite each other because they are "similar."

We already specifically know what you need to do to do the event to craft items, it isn't an vague debate. I defined it as an attempt to >make< (a word meaning produce, usually from yourself with the previous word "attempt) a "something".

Just like killing monsters = getting item drops
Vising vendors = buying items from npcs or using vendor recipes
Using predefined items that you use on items to create an effect = crafting

Less stupid please and 3edgy5me.

Even then why even quote me just to sound like a dumbass? What does debating "my logic" (lol) have to do with if the game should have more vendor recipes or not. Defining what are current crafting system and what we should "call it" is a complete waste of time because it doesn't achieve the desire result of creating more deterministic crafting.

OP speaks truth, this aint crafting, this is just a slot machine