Why does reave not work properly with Dual wield?

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Mark_GGG a écrit :

For the record, discussing and debating how strong the bonuses currently for dual wielding are and if they need increased is fine and good.

Insisting that dual wield in general, or this skill, should have double DPS, is unlikely to be productive, as that causes severe balance issues, as noted and explained in the threads I linked earlier.

so just fix the cleave will you? instead of '40% reduced PHYSICAL dmg' just change to '40% reduced damage'

as always you are not ready to fix the issue (like with broken overpowered uniques) but are very keen to mess with all other elements (breaking some in the process)

just like ggg refused to fix Kaoms and instead nerfed life to balance around it. not that it made life builds useless compared to CI but youve made it - ggg didnt have to nerf Kaoms. like 95% people going ES now is just a slight issue.

dont do the same with skills. balance them out, not create loopholes and rules around them.

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sidtherat a écrit :

so just fix the cleave will you? instead of '40% reduced PHYSICAL dmg' just change to '40% reduced damage'

Seconded.

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just like ggg refused to fix Kaoms and instead nerfed life to balance around it. not that it made life builds useless compared to CI but youve made it - ggg didnt have to nerf Kaoms. like 95% people going ES now is just a slight issue.

That.. was more to buff armour. Incoming damage was scaled down as well.

Energy Shield has always, always been broken. You can get 1000 energy shield on just a chest piece, that's the equivalent of Koam's Heart. With six sockets. And some extra gravy affixes for the road.

Life/Energy Shield is Just Better since it works against everything. All you can do is heavily reduce the flat +e.shield affixes or make the local% increase not multiply the flat affix as well. The bottom tier is fine, it's the top-tier with e.shield gear that's warped.

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Boruko a écrit :

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Kettch a écrit :

You guys had to know how misleading that would be.

It isn't misleading. There are skills that do not work with dual wielding. Like Double Strike. Uses only the mainhand weapon.

This alternates weapons. Which is what they want dual wielding to do. Which means this works with dual wielding.

It's like asking for the skill to hit twice, because Double Strike does. Or launch projectiles, because Lightning Strike does. Attacking with both weapons is part of the Dual Strike SKILL, not part of dual WIELDING in general.

And the 10% attack bonus is a lot better than some of you give it credit for. It's multiplicative, meaning it is always a 10% increase. 10% in the tree is only a 10% increase when going from 0->10

Alternating weapons is a disadvantage. A bad thing. Attacking with main hand only is 100% superior or equal in all cases. This is not something to advertise. There was no reason to say that the skill works with dual wielding. It's as bad as possible for dual wielding.

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sidtherat a écrit :

so just fix the cleave will you? instead of '40% reduced PHYSICAL dmg' just change to '40% reduced damage'

I've been begging for this for many months.

Actually "40% less damage while dual-wielding", which means Cleave will sit at optimally 84% Damage Effectiveness while dual-wielding instead of the whopping 140% DE it sits at currently. Compare with another melee aoe, Ground Slam at 70% Damage Effectives.

Cleave and Dual Strike (which is also very strong, 200% Damage Effectiveness in the optimal case) are very odd that they count both weapons with no penalty. There's no way to balance Cleave's one-handed use with its dual-wielding use without including some kind of "X% less damage while dual-wielding" affix.

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There's one more weirdness around dual wielding with melee skills. Leap Slam, Ground Slam, and Double Strike do not alternate hands like the other melee skills. I hope to one day see that get fixed as well.

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Without the absurd strength of Cleave, dual-wielding would be woefully irrelevant. 10% aspd and 15% block is not worth giving up a shield for. Hopefully GGG will see that when there's a reason to dual-wield and not use Cleave.

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Kettch a écrit :

This is incredibly disappointing. Why did you bother to state the skill works with dual wielding on its reveal if this is what you were going for? By this definition, everything works with dual wielding unless it requires a 2-hander.

^ This. GGG generally underpromises and overdelivers, but Reave is not the answer for dual-wield claw/dagger we were hoping for. Or just the answer for claws we were looking for, full stop.

but on topic - this skill is unfortunately meh at best so thats not a big issue

- it does dmg in front (melee splash - around) so fast hordes like leapers, monkeys etc will kill you esp with desync
- it has to wind up so for brief encounters you are mostly using 1-2 stack version that is simply bad
- it shows desync in the purest form when life bars of monsters half screen away start to go down (and they are behind you)
- reset when cursing/shield charging so it means you cannot bring stacks from one pack to another.
- weapon requirement that is strict yet the skill is not that good at all to warrant it
- vs hordes only. no single target benefit so (because it assumes only one 5/6L slot) it requires gem swapping or using it as a 4Link that is not that good
- it seems that accuracy still applies to AOE

+ low mana cost and no mana cost multiplier from the melee splash, can use one more support gem
+ gfx/sound are nice

Yes alternating weapons is actually disadvantage.
Double Strike is good because it uses only your main hand. This means you can use your off-hand as a support weapon. It gives you so many utility mods. Look around unique 1handed weapons and rare weapons with no damage mods which people usually junk.
If you want to use 2 high dps 1handed weapons, Dual Strike is way to go.

However, I understand people complaining in this thread. Give them other animation as if they are striking with both weapons simultaneously and nobody complains about it.

CI vs. Life is completely another story.

Cleave did it right. Penalise dual wield, but make it account for both weapons on every attack. That's the point.

The other way is to do a cyclone and put stats on the skill that scale with the dw ias boost. You know where that goes and let's not sidetrack the discussion too much, but doesn't anyone else find it interesting that this is the only skill for which the argument occurs repeatedly and with this much vitriol?

Yeah, dw penalties would be preferable.

Ok, so i just got online after patching and tried this new skill out. I doesn't "look" good when attacking with two weapons, but it certainly gets the job done. Even better than cleave i might say.

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Pyrokar a écrit :

Even better than cleave i might say.

It does half of cleaves dps if dual wielding.

I was pretty disappointed... dual wielding claws still have to dual strike + melee splash.