CALL FOR A COMMUNITY VOTE ON THE 0.9.11 SKILL TREE!!!

Listen carefully young ones to wise and fortunate.

Yeee shall all have the chance to impart your will on the new skilldrasil.

Yeee are all acting like it's already set in stone, that you are not all beta testers, alpha is not the new beta.

Yeee all need to understand no one is pushing anything onto you in any conspiracy. It is harder than yeee all imagine to balance the skilltree and the developers not only want but need everyones input to make it as good as possible.

Did you notice all notice at the end of Qarl's video that he specifically states:

"Getting the tree correct requires a lot of testing and balancing passive options, while we have learnt a lot from the past tree, the rebuilding of the tree means we need a lot of feedback from players experiences with it."

This means all those who have their knickers in a twist need to just wait....wait until they actually use it. Then give good beta feedback about any concerns.

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siffin a écrit :

Listen carefully young ones to wise and fortunate.

Yeee shall all have the chance to impart your will on the new skilldrasil.

Yeee are all acting like it's already set in stone, that you are not all beta testers, alpha is not the new beta.

Yeee all need to understand no one is pushing anything onto you in any conspiracy. It is harder than yeee all imagine to balance the skilltree and the developers not only want but need everyones input to make it as good as possible.

Did you notice all notice at the end of Qarl's video that he specifically states:

"Getting the tree correct requires a lot of testing and balancing passive options, while we have learnt a lot from the past tree, the rebuilding of the tree means we need a lot of feedback from players experiences with it."

This means all those who have their knickers in a twist need to just wait....wait until they actually use it. Then give good beta feedback about any concerns.

good advice =D

This thread is no longer productive, its just people blow crap out of proportion. Lets see the tree before we judge. As for the OP suggestion it's not going to happen. What if the poll says to keep the old tree. I doubt that GGG is going to throw out the weeks/months they have worked on it to appease a minority in the community ( even with a poll you aren't going to get anywhere near 100% participation. ) Development by poll ends up with a crappy game cause the development will be driven by the whims of a vocal minority that don't have a full understand of all the behind-the-scenes work.

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tachi203 a écrit :

I really like how your going straight to a agitated defence with your reply. Obviously your in no mood to remind anyone or take note of what was actualy said sooo.....

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tachi203 a écrit :

I most definitly want to see the skilltree in more depth before I will say any of this conclusively

Or maybee you failed to read that...... Or maybee you just wanted to overlook it :)

That part also contradicts your goal, which is why I left it out. You're saying that you don't want to make conclusions before trying it, but you're canvasing for a poll to prevent it from being added to the beta. Seems like you've already made your conclusion.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Yes, I purposely made it that way to state you are in a position of being un-trustworthy as a "source" for information and a small % of the community as a whole's opinion. Thus I defer your opinion to mattering less than others in this case(Its not a bias against you personaly but the fact you are now a staff member with commitments weather you acknowledge that or not). But you obviously didnt catch that. Next time I will be blunt.

I'm not GGG staff. I'm a community volunteer, just like all the other forum mods. We're free to disagree with GGG all we want, and many of us do disagree with decisions the devs have made. We wouldn't be constructive testers if we disagreed with everything they did. Being a moderator is irrelevant to everything I've said about the passive tree. What I've said is based on my experience and opinions, not my account status.

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tachi203 a écrit :

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

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tachi203 a écrit :

"Other than silver lineing the skill tree so that its more appealing to casual gamers and buyer diversity for profit sake?"(Obvious generalization).

This paragraph is bursting at the seams with unproven assumptions. You have no idea what the majorities or minorities think. You only know that there are different groups, not which is bigger. You clearly don't grasp the sheer number of players who've requested more class diversity. It's no small number.
"Intellectually handicapped" is a bit extreme and plain insulting.

Yes sir!, I was very vague and everything I said most definitly was summed up by me(Before you got the chance), as your very good at stating the obvious. =D

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tachi203 a écrit :

(Obvious generalization).

You missed the point. More on that later.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Haha =D Do you just read stuff and tip-toe/nit-pic around the meaning for everyone? or do you just do that to people who have questions that discredit you?.

Wrong on all points. I've addressed your key points. I feel like picking through your posts because they're chock-full of statements that are based on ignorance and assumptions. Unproven information is being presented as fact.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Other than making the game more mainstream and potentialy increasing profits...What are the other benefits?. Or are those the only two you got?.

Making the tree easier to navigate and understand isn't "making the game more mainstream." It's simply making the game more intuitive. There have been tons of other changes to the game aimed at clarification, organisation, and visual appeal. This is just another of those changes.

Another key part of the change is making the classes more distinct. I've already said that, but it's something you've dismissed in your effort to prove that the changes are for the sole purpose of over-simplifying the game to make more money.

As GGG is a business, you could correctly say that anything done to make the game better is going to increase profits, so that's not even an issue. The change is meant to make the game better; that's as far as that discussion needs to go.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Also did you happen to check how much positive feedback the system got? Or do you not want to answer that either.

Yeah, the people who have used it seem to be very positive about it. People who haven't used it don't have first-hand experience from which to base their conclusions other than seeing that a few particular builds won't be the same.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Opp's, did I insult a non-specific amount of people? with un-specific numbers? who un-specificly dont want to name themselves? Maybee you should get a poll to find out who I victimized?....... I guess I am sorry?.... Or did this following quote cover that again?

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tachi203 a écrit :

(Obvious generalization).

How much more obvious could I make it for you dude?????. I literaly wrote it down....

Still missed the point. If you choose to insult a large group of people, making it obvious by saying that you're generalizing doesn't absolve the insult. You grouped everyone who doesn't understand or like the current tree and called them mentally handicapped and inadequate. Saying "I'm generalizing" doesn't take away the insult. It just admits how flawed your opinion of other people is.

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tachi203 a écrit :

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

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tachi203 a écrit :

But this is totaly a decision that leans towards the pungent smell of a "Blizzard" casual gamer decision.

And there is no denying that.

I'll deny that because it's an extreme end that is nowhere in sight from this rather minor tree restructure. Making PoE's unique and complex character-building process easier to understand for new players doesn't equate to removing all build decisions in an effort to appeal to youngsters and inexperienced gamers.

You didnt even deny it(Plz, I understand you literaly wrote "I'll deny that"... But then you contradicted yourself and reassurted my point...

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

because it's an extreme end that is nowhere in sight from this rather minor tree restructure.

Which still means you agree this is a "very small" diablo-ish move. And I didnt say this would end it, I said its a slippery slope(Starts small) and faster(Bigger) over time and with more decisions like this one.

Again, you missed the point. I don't see how anything in my post supports your argument. I denied something you said can't be denied (which is silly thing to say when you're talking about opinions) and clearly stated that it doesn't take the game in the same direction that Diablo went.

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tachi203 a écrit :

And once again, you are staff...Your opinion is once again bia's.

Wrong and wrong; already discussed.

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tachi203 a écrit :

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

Yeah, but that's like saying that taking 1 step is leaning towards trekking around the globe. The new tree is nowhere near being linear.

Dude, we know that. And bravo on the "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" saying you mis-represented :)

You know it, but you don't understand how it applies. I didn't misrepresent a saying; I made up an analogy that happens to be similar to a saying. That saying supports your argument. My analogy doesn't.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Contradiction's.... Terrible things....

Eg.
The minoritys =(hardcore and casual) = players(As a whole) are posting feedback contradicting eachother. and the minoritys = (hardcore and casual) = players(As a whole), decide the outcome.

You respond - No, they don't. and then write this....

"The devs decide the outcome based on their analysis of testers' feedback"

Tester's = players(As a whole) = (Hardcore and Casual) = minority's.......Who write feedback, decide the outcome based on an analysis by the dev's that take primary consideration of the majority results of the feedback.....

Which just ends in whatever minority wins the feedback wars = Wins.... Which proves me correct :)

You clearly have no idea what kind of thought process goes on in deciding what changes to make. The devs don't just make changes based on who seems to have won a debate or who screamed the loudest. You're assuming that is what happens. Even if two groups bicker it out, there is nothing that says the devs will make any change at all to please either group, especially if they are minorities.

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tachi203 a écrit :

Hope you understand all that +D Because even I have trouble :)

It could be difficult for anyone, because it's so incorrect.

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tachi203 a écrit :

"Change the skill system for everyone to help for lack of a better word "People who obviously have a hard time with maths or decision making""

But apparently even that was decided by... as I quote

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

You clearly don't grasp the sheer number of players who've requested more class diversity. It's no small number.

So I am just going to LOL.

You're saying that people who want classes to be more different are indecisive and not good at math? Please take the time to understand how incredibly ridiculous that sounds.

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tachi203 a écrit :

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

Please give evidence that casual gamers are allowed to make development decisions due to their monetary contributions to GGG.

You just did that for me.......

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

They're looking at making the game better overall, in the big picture. Some things will have to be broken now to make the game better.

That makes no sense whatsoever. What I said in that quote has nothing at all to do with monetary contributions.

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tachi203 a écrit :

But this still doesnt really help the matter at hand about letting everyone take a good look at the new skill tree before staff/alpha make the decision for us =D.

They're not making the decision for you. They're making it themselves, because it's not your decision to make. It's their game and their decision.

Basically, you misunderstood everything I wrote in that post.

My only opinion on the skill tree at this current point: Looks like theres too much non-stat node forcing at the start points. Specifically, templar looks like its forced to either take increased mana or increased spell power. Neither of these things should be forced.

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Xendran a écrit :

My only opinion on the skill tree at this current point: Looks like theres too much non-stat node forcing at the start points. Specifically, templar looks like its forced to either take increased mana or increased spell power. Neither of these things should be forced.

I definitely feel like there should be a way to join a highway without being forced to choose a non-stat node.

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siffin a écrit :

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Xendran a écrit :

My only opinion on the skill tree at this current point: Looks like theres too much non-stat node forcing at the start points. Specifically, templar looks like its forced to either take increased mana or increased spell power. Neither of these things should be forced.

I definitely feel like there should be a way to join a highway without being forced to choose a non-stat node.

I definitely agree with this feeling. I've made tons of Rangers that did not use either of their 2 core branches.

Please don't force me to take the 12% evasion bonus, when I don't intend to make an evasion build. Having only one other way out is not a "choice".

This looks a lot like Henry Ford's "You can have a Model T in any color you like, as long as it's black".

Actually, the 9.10 drasil was philosophically pretty cool. Either you take a specialized, non-atribute path, AWAY from the center. Or, you take an general attribute stat TOWARDS the center, and become more of a generalist (or more able to take things from any other class).

Now, I feel like I'm kind of forced to be a "Ranger" Ranger before I get to dab into anything else.

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ac429 a écrit :

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siffin a écrit :

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Xendran a écrit :

My only opinion on the skill tree at this current point: Looks like theres too much non-stat node forcing at the start points. Specifically, templar looks like its forced to either take increased mana or increased spell power. Neither of these things should be forced.

I definitely feel like there should be a way to join a highway without being forced to choose a non-stat node.

I definitely agree with this feeling. I've made tons of Rangers that did not use either of their 2 core branches.

Please don't force me to take the 12% evasion bonus, when I don't intend to make an evasion build. Having only one other way out is not a "choice".

This looks a lot like Henry Ford's "You can have a Model T in any color you like, as long as it's black".

Actually, the 9.10 drasil was philosophically pretty cool. Either you take a specialized, non-atribute path, AWAY from the center. Or, you take an general attribute stat TOWARDS the center, and become more of a generalist (or more able to take things from any other class).

Now, I feel like I'm kind of forced to be a "Ranger" Ranger before I get to dab into anything else.

- This is a very good point. It would be nice to acces a main highway from the start for any player giving easy access to many options with a "main paths" option for others. I still think maybe forcing the beginning a little is fair on all fronts but forcing non stat nodes doesnt quite seem fair to all type of players...

You only have to take 1 non-attribute node. It's not like you're being forced to go through a full cluster of life nodes before you can break out and head off to be a Chaos Inoculation marauder or whatever.

As one wise forum member pointed out, the choice of four directions remains -- it's just one more level away.

I think the initial choice is fairly generic, but I will agree that mana or spell damage wouldn't help, say, a blood magic using melee templar. Given that he is supposed to be Str/Int, I am surprised GGG didn't go mana regen for one node, melee damage for the other.