CALL FOR A COMMUNITY VOTE ON THE 0.9.11 SKILL TREE!!!

I seen the video on youtube of Chris explaining the new end game maps. He mentioned that they are changing the skill tree to make things easier for new players.

I believe they are making a faulty assumption that their players don't understand and cannot adapt to the existing skill tree.

I, for one, appreciate the depth of the current skill tree and how you really have to take some time and look into things before you spend your points.

GGG: Please don't dumb down the skill tree because you think people won't understand it. The tree is fine the way it is.

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GigaClon a écrit :

First off let the tree come out before you trash it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwJuqovp0sE

Here Carl from GGG explains the new tree. The idea behind the new tree is to give newbies some idea what options go well with each class while still giving escape routes for people that want explore. They tried to keep as many builds viable as possible.

I think newbies should be given the benefit of the doubt that they can figure it out on their own. It doesn't need to be handed to them or made easier for them.

The devs didn't just assume that new players can't understand it. This change is due to a lot of feedback saying that it's too complicated for new players. It's the players themselves who requested such a change.

Really, though, it's not "dumbed down" much at all. You can still be just as creative as you could be in the old tree. There is only a slightly higher cost to go from one class to another.

I wound up pausing and loading, and scrutinizing over the new tree for 20 minutes from the Youtube video. The builds that I play at the moment all seem viable, except I tried (and failed) to make a Cold/Critical/Blood Magic Shadow caster. Now that Blood Magic is as far as possible from the Shadow, it looks like that build is officially dead. (Thank God.)

Minions look almost exactly the same, except the pathway of awesome between the Templar and the Witch that went up to Minion Instability has been cut out... which is a very good change.

Spell casters in general look stronger. The large circles of specialized elemental types are all grouped next to the entryway into the Witch's powers. The Shadow's spell casting tree type looks almost entirely untouched. Going from Templar to Witch to Shadow to pick up all of one juicy element could be very possible.

The center is no longer a haven for +30 nodes that anyone can access. Instead, there are plenty of cross-class +30 nodes near the desired types. It looks like it will actually be easier to equip gear and support gems now, even with a generally specialized build.

These changes are just the icing on the cake. Overall, the tree looks like it has a few more nodes than before, maybe as high as 20% more. Blank space has been used well to cover this up, and high concentrations of similar passives as well as looooong roads between ability passives mean that players shouldn't have too much trouble finding a route to what they need. Therefore, players will likely have an easier time eliminating worthless nodes.

I know many players are adverse to change, but this looks like it is just a stronger tree. There is a bit of limitation, but only at... choice 1. After that, it looks like it spreads out exactly how players would expect it to. Some players complained about class diversity, or the survivability/damage of one class over another *cough*ShadowvsTemplar*cough* and it looks like GGG did a good job of addressing these concerns in the framework of their new passive tree.

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Shippal a écrit :

I wound up pausing and loading, and scrutinizing over the new tree for 20 minutes from the Youtube video. The builds that I play at the moment all seem viable, except I tried (and failed) to make a Cold/Critical/Blood Magic Shadow caster. Now that Blood Magic is as far as possible from the Shadow, it looks like that build is officially dead. (Thank God.)

Minions look almost exactly the same, except the pathway of awesome between the Templar and the Witch that went up to Minion Instability has been cut out... which is a very good change.

Spell casters in general look stronger. The large circles of specialized elemental types are all grouped next to the entryway into the Witch's powers. The Shadow's spell casting tree type looks almost entirely untouched. Going from Templar to Witch to Shadow to pick up all of one juicy element could be very possible.

The center is no longer a haven for +30 nodes that anyone can access. Instead, there are plenty of cross-class +30 nodes near the desired types. It looks like it will actually be easier to equip gear and support gems now, even with a generally specialized build.

These changes are just the icing on the cake. Overall, the tree looks like it has a few more nodes than before, maybe as high as 20% more. Blank space has been used well to cover this up, and high concentrations of similar passives as well as looooong roads between ability passives mean that players shouldn't have too much trouble finding a route to what they need. Therefore, players will likely have an easier time eliminating worthless nodes.

I know many players are adverse to change, but this looks like it is just a stronger tree. There is a bit of limitation, but only at... choice 1. After that, it looks like it spreads out exactly how players would expect it to. Some players complained about class diversity, or the survivability/damage of one class over another *cough*ShadowvsTemplar*cough* and it looks like GGG did a good job of addressing these concerns in the framework of their new passive tree.

This was probably the most informative post I have read about the new skill tree. I think your analysis is pretty spot on. I like the early limitations of the tree that branch out and open up. It seems like players can access the "outter edges" of the tree faster should they choose to.

One thing I thought was fairly funny is my roommate started playing a Ranger and never allocated ANY points because he wasnt sure how he wanted to play yet. I logged on his character and explained the tree a little to him and had to allocate his points for him. I would not classify him as a noob by any means given his gaming history but this brought to light the "issue" many casual gamers may face early on. Not saying that this game should cater to those players entirely, but I will say if this were the real game and not the beta, players would hesitate a little more knowing its that much more permenant. I know I dont hesitate since I know characters are going to wipe, but for the OB I will probably have to plan a little more, and the new skill tree seems to help alot.

Have faith in the Devs, they have not given you good reason to doubt them yet. They have gone "left" where Blizzard Devs have gone "right" and so far PoE Devs have made all the right turns. Lets just wait and see what happens. We know they are pretty responsive to the client base so if it IS a problem, they will alter it.

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

The devs didn't just assume that new players can't understand it. This change is due to a lot of feedback saying that it's too complicated for new players. It's the players themselves who requested such a change.

Really, though, it's not "dumbed down" much at all. You can still be just as creative as you could be in the old tree. There is only a slightly higher cost to go from one class to another.

Lets not forget that it is not alway a good idea to listen the the more vocal minority.

This game has a LOT of deapth, complexity, and freedom of customisation. Because of this, it attracts the more... euh... whats the opposite of "casual"? Hardcore? This game attracts the more hardcore crowd. These are this game's players. And it should cater to them, and be designed to give them the deapth they simply cannot find anywhere else.

I think the majority of the community was being silent, simply because they where perfectly happy with the skill tree as it was.

Catering to those few but loud that where confused by the shear scope and complexity of the tree was, I think, a bad idea. The complexity and unforgivingness of the skill tree is what has attracted so many hardcore players here.

But... The tree is still extremely complex and still offers countless options and still has all the functionality it had before. The only thing that really changed is how easy it is to immediately cross-class a character. Class diversity has been an issue since the very beginning of beta (probably even earlier in alpha) and the devs have agreed that making the classes more distinct is a good thing, as long as it still allows flexibility and choice. The new tree design accomplishes both of those goals.

I don't think the people who wanted more distinction between classes are a minority at all. It's not like there were just a few whiny threads. There are hundreds of posts saying that classes should be more distinct. This change doesn't hurt anything that's currently in the game, so there's no reason not to make the change.

The devs put a lot of though into this and they think it's the right idea. They don't have a history of making drastic changes just to appeal to "casual" gamers (using the term to mean inexperienced gamers). Even gamers who have a history in RPG's can be intimidated by the skill tree. They're not casuals; they're just new to PoE.

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I think the majority of the community was being silent, simply because they where perfectly happy with the skill tree as it was.

Yeah and maybe the majority is still silent, simply because they are perfectly fine with the change.
Anyway, I am fine with the change. After some time of testing we will provide actual feedback and see...

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

But... The tree is still extremely complex and still offers countless options and still has all the functionality it had before. The only thing that really changed is how easy it is to immediately cross-class a character. Class diversity has been an issue since the very beginning of beta (probably even earlier in alpha) and the devs have agreed that making the classes more distinct is a good thing, as long as it still allows flexibility and choice. The new tree design accomplishes both of those goals.

I don't think the people who wanted more distinction between classes are a minority at all. It's not like there were just a few whiny threads. There are hundreds of posts saying that classes should be more distinct. This change doesn't hurt anything that's currently in the game, so there's no reason not to make the change.

The devs put a lot of though into this and they think it's the right idea. They don't have a history of making drastic changes just to appeal to "casual" gamers (using the term to mean inexperienced gamers). Even gamers who have a history in RPG's can be intimidated by the skill tree. They're not casuals; they're just new to PoE.

100% agree. Dont knock it till you try it! I cant believe so many people think the sky is falling on this one. It isnt even out yet and people are complaining. I have heard alot about how there are no real "class boundaries" or "class distinctions" and that anyclass can play just like any other. This gives it a little more class unique-ness and I still dont see how the customization is not there? It alsmot seems better since they added quite a bit more nodes AND made it easier to get the outter skills... Just wait a few weeks after its been out and see...

Okay... (Though its annoying that only the mods are really defending this atm, which just ozzes undeniable bias atm to me)

Let it be known, I most definitly want to see the skilltree in more depth before I will say any of this conclusively and I understand that the alpha's are the only ones who have first hand experiance(Thus making them better to answer questions), but thats a minority right there aswell....A educated minority, but a minority none-the-less.

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

Class diversity has been an issue since the very beginning of beta

Yes, a minority of underacheiver's complained that there was no class diversity, but that was more a lack of understanding on their part(Period). The classes seemed very well laid out to the majority and very distinct(As said, the silent majority obviously found it perfectly acceptable(Hell, there were HUNDREDS of good remark threads), and now you have the hardcore's slightly ruffled), eg. the starting point of each node was completely different in the fact it was further in one specific direction and closer to that edge of the tree to bring out class uniqueness. Did we really need to reduce the starting complexity for a minority lack of understanding so that we accomodate the intellectualy handicaped?. And if so, give me a good reason? "Other than silver lineing the skill tree so that its more appealing to casual gamers and buyer diversity for profit sake?". Catering to casuals is a slippery slope and always has been to average/hardcore gamers which are the majority around here(Obvious generalization).

I note someone said,

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clinx1337 a écrit :

Have faith in the Devs, they have not given you good reason to doubt them yet. They have gone "left" where Blizzard Devs have gone "right" and so far PoE Devs have made all the right turns.

Sure, up untill now....... lots of great decisions!.

But this is totaly a decision that leans towards the pungent smell of a "Blizzard" casual gamer decision.

And there is no denying that.

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

This change doesn't hurt anything that's currently in the game

Many people have already stated it will affect their builds.. and it makes perfect sense because there are probably alot of builds that had not even been created yet.

I notice you do usualy say "wont hurt most"...Which I agree with.

But thats still not an excuse to roll-over about it.

As not only do the casual minority get a say in this.

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WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

They don't have a history of making drastic changes just to appeal to "casual" gamers(using the term to mean inexperienced gamers). Even gamers who have a history in RPG's can be intimidated by the skill tree. They're not casuals; they're just new to PoE.

"""they don't have a history of making drastic changes just to appeal to "casual" gamers"""

They do now if they do this.....thats pritty obvious.

Once again this is a education/introduction into the game problem and as such should be treated that way, narrowing the complexity of starting points to solve a introduction failure is alittle drastic and learns towards a linear skill tree like diablo 2(Which I dont like and others).

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wiggin a écrit :

Yeah and maybe the majority is still silent, simply because they are perfectly fine with the change.

Yes, and that is a problem when only two minoritys are bickering(hardcore vs casual) and the minoritys decide the outcome.(Which is why I call a full release of information regarding the new skilltree and for a community wide poll on it) And unfortunaly, the casuals are a bunch of exertive moaner's complaining about their inadequacy. And unfortunatly the amount of money casuals are willing to spend is enough to persuade developer's easialy(But dont count the hardcore community out with their extreame support also, though the overall numbers may become lower).....

But anyway..... If GGG really want to force us into beta testing this for them then fine...That is our job as "beta testers"........ And I dont have the biggest issue with this, but enough to get discussion going on about it and poll's..... Public opinion is still important I hope.

**Cough** hopefully we can stop this in beta **Cough**

Just as much as morderator/staff crowd control :)