CALL FOR A COMMUNITY VOTE ON THE 0.9.11 SKILL TREE!!!

I think voting is a stupid idea. Let the developers develop and make suggestions based on hard facts.

Leave it in GGG's hands,

My only take on it, is move some things away from Shadows corner, its way to crowded over there, makes wanting to start as a Shadow seem really powerful for so many nodes over other classes.

And Shadow node area has many things that other classes actually need for various builds and can be very hard to reach.

I finally got it. We beg for some early info :)

Pool or no pool, game they are changing.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

Okay... (Though its annoying that only the mods are really defending this atm, which just ozzes undeniable bias atm to me)

...I understand that the alpha's are the only ones who have first hand experiance(Thus making them better to answer questions), but thats a minority right there aswell....A educated minority, but a minority none-the-less.

Contradiction FTW. You understand that we're the only ones educated through first-hand experience, yet you attribute our points of view to bias.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

Yes, a minority of underacheiver's complained that there was no class diversity, but that was more a lack of understanding on their part(Period). The classes seemed very well laid out to the majority and very distinct(As said, the silent majority obviously found it perfectly acceptable(Hell, there were HUNDREDS of good remark threads), and now you have the hardcore's slightly ruffled), eg. the starting point of each node was completely different in the fact it was further in one specific direction and closer to that edge of the tree to bring out class uniqueness. Did we really need to reduce the starting complexity for a minority lack of understanding so that we accomodate the intellectualy handicaped?. And if so, give me a good reason? "Other than silver lineing the skill tree so that its more appealing to casual gamers and buyer diversity for profit sake?". Catering to casuals is a slippery slope and always has been to average/hardcore gamers which are the majority around here(Obvious generalization).

This paragraph is bursting at the seams with unproven assumptions. You have no idea what the majorities or minorities think. You only know that there are different groups, not which is bigger. You clearly don't grasp the sheer number of players who've requested more class diversity. It's no small number.

"Intellectually handicapped" is a bit extreme and plain insulting.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

But this is totaly a decision that leans towards the pungent smell of a "Blizzard" casual gamer decision.

And there is no denying that.

I'll deny that because it's an extreme end that is nowhere in sight from this rather minor tree restructure. Making PoE's unique and complex character-building process easier to understand for new players doesn't equate to removing all build decisions in an effort to appeal to youngsters and inexperienced gamers.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

Once again this is a education/introduction into the game problem and as such should be treated that way, narrowing the complexity of starting points to solve a introduction failure is alittle drastic and learns towards a linear skill tree like diablo 2(Which I dont like and others).

Yeah, but that's like saying that taking 1 step is leaning towards trekking around the globe. The new tree is nowhere near being linear.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

Yes, and that is a problem when only two minoritys are bickering(hardcore vs casual) and the minoritys decide the outcome.

No, they don't. The devs decide the outcome based on their analysis of testers' feedback. There have been plenty of minorities that have failed to have their wishes fulfilled, no matter how much they bickered. The devs don't just blindly make changes based on what a few testers say. They put more thought into it than you're giving them credit for.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

And unfortunaly, the casuals are a bunch of exertive moaner's complaining about their inadequacy.

More insults. Good rhetoric.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

And unfortunatly the amount of money casuals are willing to spend is enough to persuade developer's easialy(But dont count the hardcore community out with their extreame support also, though the overall numbers may become lower).....

Please give evidence that casual gamers are allowed to make development decisions due to their monetary contributions to GGG.

"

tachi203 a écrit :

But anyway..... If GGG really want to force us into beta testing this for them then fine... That is our job as "beta testers"........ And I dont have the biggest issue with this, but enough to get discussion going on about it and poll's..... Public opinion is still important I hope.

Opinions are important, but the devs are intelligent enough to not put too much stock in opinions that have no experience with the issue at hand. A bunch of players saying "This killed my crazy X, Y, Z build" isn't going to sway their decision much. Most builds are still viable and new possibilities have yet to be explored. They've said numerous times in the past that they know some changes will ruin some builds during beta, and that's just part of the development process. They're looking at making the game better overall, in the big picture. Some things will have to be broken now to make the game better.

Good grief, tachi203?
Why, or why did u sign up as a beta tester?

I have a feeling you are just trying to test to see how, erm, influential you are. I can't think of any reason why you'd call for a 'poll'. Pathetic. As if GGG is a democracy. You smoking crack? They'll listen, they'll take whatever you say into consideration. Will they implement your suggestion and feedback? No guarantee. Deal with it. Its not their problem if you can't accept their changes. Its yours. Then let them know.

Say what's on your mind. You's rather have the status quo. period.

You know, this is not your game. Feel free to make your own hack and slash as you see fit.

Some feedback for you KTHNXBAI.

The new layout is (to my eye) vastly more visually appealing and more neatly structured, with excellent use of "white" space. I wonder if this improvement is responsible for the perceived loss of complexity that some seem to be worried about?

People need to keep in mind that:
a) The new tree seems contain just as many (if not more) nodes as before, and appears to be just as non-linear as we're used to.
b) GGG have clearly indicated they've made an effort to keep a large number of builds viable.
c) The game is still in closed beta - there will be plenty of chance for feedback and further adjustments, and GGG have proved themselves very receptive to suggestions from the player base.

I for one am very excited about all the upcoming changes - this patch is sounding fantastic!

I really like how your going straight to a agitated defence with your reply. Obviously your in no mood to remind anyone or take note of what was actualy said sooo.....

"

tachi203 a écrit :

I most definitly want to see the skilltree in more depth before I will say any of this conclusively

Or maybee you failed to read that...... Or maybee you just wanted to overlook it :)

Because I wrote this...

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tachi203 a écrit :

Just as much as morderator/staff crowd control :)

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

Contradiction FTW. You understand that we're the only ones educated through first-hand experience, yet you attribute our points of view to bias.

Yes, I purposely made it that way to state you are in a position of being un-trustworthy as a "source" for information and a small % of the community as a whole's opinion. Thus I defer your opinion to mattering less than others in this case(Its not a bias against you personaly but the fact you are now a staff member with commitments weather you acknowledge that or not). But you obviously didnt catch that. Next time I will be blunt.

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

"

tachi203 a écrit :

"Other than silver lineing the skill tree so that its more appealing to casual gamers and buyer diversity for profit sake?"(Obvious generalization).

This paragraph is bursting at the seams with unproven assumptions. You have no idea what the majorities or minorities think. You only know that there are different groups, not which is bigger. You clearly don't grasp the sheer number of players who've requested more class diversity. It's no small number.

"Intellectually handicapped" is a bit extreme and plain insulting.

Yes sir!, I was very vague and everything I said most definitly was summed up by me(Before you got the chance), as your very good at stating the obvious. =D

"

tachi203 a écrit :

(Obvious generalization).

Haha =D Do you just read stuff and tip-toe/nit-pic around the meaning for everyone? or do you just do that to people who have questions that discredit you?.

Other than making the game more mainstream and potentialy increasing profits...What are the other benefits?. Or are those the only two you got?.

Also did you happen to check how much positive feedback the system got? Or do you not want to answer that either.

Opp's, did I insult a non-specific amount of people? with un-specific numbers? who un-specificly dont want to name themselves? Maybee you should get a poll to find out who I victimized?....... I guess I am sorry?.... Or did this following quote cover that again?

"

tachi203 a écrit :

(Obvious generalization).

How much more obvious could I make it for you dude?????. I literaly wrote it down....

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

"

tachi203 a écrit :

But this is totaly a decision that leans towards the pungent smell of a "Blizzard" casual gamer decision.

And there is no denying that.

I'll deny that because it's an extreme end that is nowhere in sight from this rather minor tree restructure. Making PoE's unique and complex character-building process easier to understand for new players doesn't equate to removing all build decisions in an effort to appeal to youngsters and inexperienced gamers.

You didnt even deny it(Plz, I understand you literaly wrote "I'll deny that"... But then you contradicted yourself and reassurted my point...

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

because it's an extreme end that is nowhere in sight from this rather minor tree restructure.

Which still means you agree this is a "very small" diablo-ish move. And I didnt say this would end it, I said its a slippery slope(Starts small) and faster(Bigger) over time and with more decisions like this one.

And once again, you are staff...Your opinion is once again bia's.

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

Yeah, but that's like saying that taking 1 step is leaning towards trekking around the globe. The new tree is nowhere near being linear.

Dude, we know that. And bravo on the "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" saying you mis-represented :)

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

"

tachi203 a écrit :

Yes, and that is a problem when only two minoritys are bickering(hardcore vs casual) and the minoritys decide the outcome.

No, they don't. The devs decide the outcome based on their analysis of testers' feedback. There have been plenty of minorities that have failed to have their wishes fulfilled, no matter how much they bickered. The devs don't just blindly make changes based on what a few testers say. They put more thought into it than you're giving them credit for.

Contradiction's.... Terrible things....

Eg.
The minoritys =(hardcore and casual) = players(As a whole) are posting feedback contradicting eachother. and the minoritys = (hardcore and casual) = players(As a whole), decide the outcome.

You respond - No, they don't. and then write this....

"The devs decide the outcome based on their analysis of testers' feedback"

Tester's = players(As a whole) = (Hardcore and Casual) = minority's.......Who write feedback, decide the outcome based on an analysis by the dev's that take primary consideration of the majority results of the feedback.....

Which just ends in whatever minority wins the feedback wars = Wins.... Which proves me correct :)

Hope you understand all that +D Because even I have trouble :)

But yes, I agree the devs/staff in the end could just override the community and you know.... as an example :)

"Change the skill system for everyone to help for lack of a better word "People who obviously have a hard time with maths or decision making""

But apparently even that was decided by... as I quote

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

You clearly don't grasp the sheer number of players who've requested more class diversity. It's no small number.

So I am just going to LOL.

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

Please give evidence that casual gamers are allowed to make development decisions due to their monetary contributions to GGG.

You just did that for me.......

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

They're looking at making the game better overall, in the big picture. Some things will have to be broken now to make the game better.

Well I hope it work's out the way you say it does.

But this still doesnt really help the matter at hand about letting everyone take a good look at the new skill tree before staff/alpha make the decision for us =D.

because feedbacks important right? :)

"

WhiteBoy88 a écrit :

The devs decide the outcome based on their analysis of testers' feedback

"

THEHORNEDRAT a écrit :

Good grief, tachi203?
Why, or why did u sign up as a beta tester?

"

tachi203 a écrit :

Because I wanted to help try to contribute to making it a great game because I see potential in it +D. Why did you?.

I have a feeling you are just trying to test to see how, erm, influential you are. I can't think of any reason why you'd call for a 'poll'. Pathetic. As if GGG is a democracy. You smoking crack? They'll listen, they'll take whatever you say into consideration. Will they implement your suggestion and feedback? No guarantee. Deal with it. Its not their problem if you can't accept their changes. Its yours. Then let them know.

Say what's on your mind. You's rather have the status quo. period.

You know, this is not your game. Feel free to make your own hack and slash as you see fit.

Some feedback for you KTHNXBAI.

Well this is in the suggestion section for a reason :)

And calling for a poll is a suggestion....

Gota stick up for my suggestion.......And I will defend my suggestion if I have to and explain it more if needed.

And from the looks of it, my suggestion wont get anywhere anyway lol.

Why you QQ so much?.

Btw, contradiction

"

THEHORNEDRAT a écrit :

Its not their problem if you can't accept their changes. Its yours.

Then let them know."

Its kinda what I am doing :)

--------

"

THEHORNEDRAT a écrit :

Pathetic. You are just trying to test to see how, erm, influential you are

Dude you are really mean. And once again its just a suggestion :) .

Play nice plz.

"

aboltris a écrit :

The new layout is (to my eye) vastly more visually appealing and more neatly structured, with excellent use of "white" space. I wonder if this improvement is responsible for the perceived loss of complexity that some seem to be worried about?

People need to keep in mind that:
a) The new tree seems contain just as many (if not more) nodes as before, and appears to be just as non-linear as we're used to.
b) GGG have clearly indicated they've made an effort to keep a large number of builds viable.
c) The game is still in closed beta - there will be plenty of chance for feedback and further adjustments, and GGG have proved themselves very receptive to suggestions from the player base.

I for one am very excited about all the upcoming changes - this patch is sounding fantastic!

Agreed, Im just trying to get people to be fussy =D You know? refine, refine =D.

you know what, this whole thread has become TLDR.