Elemental damage completely dominates this game, physical remains useless

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Moosifer a écrit :

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mazul a écrit :

I did find one 30k+ dps cleaver that uses physical damage: ***********. However, only 47.4% of his damage was physical; so it is mostly elemental damage.

Don't link that website here first off. The build I was referring to was posted in the duelist forum here.

Secondly, again, in the context of the game there is partial conversion, full conversion and elemental. If you are going to argue pure this or pure that then yes physical will never win because that's not how it works in this game. Until they start adding more options for pure physical our only reality is conversion, just stop with this "it's not pure" crap.

You can make the exact same arguments with life nodes, or a lot of other things

Evidently the game is designed around pure physical damage as much as it is for pure elemental damage, there are skills and passive nodes and w/e that evidences this clearly

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Moosifer a écrit :

So which are you claiming that elemental is better or physical? On top of that you aren't accepting experiences of people who have played both and demand numbers we don't have access to so basically the only people who can change your mind would be a dev?

In otherwords there's no point of arguing with you because you're right unless I bother Mark_GGG to back up my statement. Good to know.

/thread

I am claiming neither until I see solid evidence supporting either case. You are welcome to set assumptions about resistances and armors and then show that using those assumptions pure physical damage would beat "elemental damage"-based builds; that would be a start.

Experience can be indicators of various things. However, without proper analysis of what they actually experienced, it does not constitute as proof. It isn't enough that one managed to solo endgame maps with both physical and elemental builds, more analysis is needed than that.

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deteego a écrit :

You can make the exact same arguments with life nodes, or a lot of other things

Evidently the game is designed around pure physical damage as much as it is for pure elemental damage, there are skills and passive nodes and w/e that evidences this clearly

What the hell are you talking about with life nodes?

Game isn't designed around pure physical, it's balanced around conversions. Because of all the conversion skills they can't make physical scaling get too out of hand because if you full convert it rather than just getting a partial bonus from WED it becomes multiplicative and then with the gem that's another multiplicative mod then if it's area damage you use concentrated effect for another one.

Full conversion physical damage scaling can get pretty high but is put into check with res which is why less physical damage is more effective by blowing through armor. I think this is why they are hesitant to change the armor formula because if they make it better they need to buff physical damage which buffs conversion builds and they they have to readjust mob HP. It's not as easy as just changing armor, but they need to change how armor works.

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Moosifer a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

You can make the exact same arguments with life nodes, or a lot of other things

Evidently the game is designed around pure physical damage as much as it is for pure elemental damage, there are skills and passive nodes and w/e that evidences this clearly

What the hell are you talking about with life nodes?

Game isn't designed around pure physical, it's balanced around conversions. Because of all the conversion skills they can't make physical scaling get too out of hand because if you full convert it rather than just getting a partial bonus from WED it becomes multiplicative and then with the gem that's another multiplicative mod then if it's area damage you use concentrated effect for another one.

Full conversion physical damage scaling can get pretty high but is put into check with res which is why less physical damage is more effective by blowing through armor. I think this is why they are hesitant to change the armor formula because if they make it better they need to buff physical damage which buffs conversion builds and they they have to readjust mob HP. It's not as easy as just changing armor, but they need to change how armor works.

They can buff physical builds without improving elemental conversion ones, by introducing gems/items that increase physical damage while simultaneously causing "X % less elemental damage@

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Moosifer a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

You can make the exact same arguments with life nodes, or a lot of other things

Evidently the game is designed around pure physical damage as much as it is for pure elemental damage, there are skills and passive nodes and w/e that evidences this clearly

What the hell are you talking about with life nodes?

Game isn't designed around pure physical, it's balanced around conversions.

And I can argue the game isn't designed around being offensive, its designed around getting as much defense as possible, primarily through life nodes

See where the problem with that argument is? You can basically argue anything using that kind of attitude.

My point is that there is no evidence that this game discourages doing a pure physical build, anymore than a pure elemental build (or pure tank or pure offense or pure anything else).

Obviously its more effective now, but it can just as easily be argued that its a balance issues, hence why this discussion is being had in the first place

Most skills have damage conversion, auras don't give physical damage, 1 of the 3 gems that scales off physical damage is elemental. If the game is designed around physical damage they have a hard time convincing us. Meanwhile life is a very common roll on gear, there's a ton of nodes on the tree that give % or flat life, also it's tied into an attribute also things like elemental procs and stuns durations/chance are calculated by life. I think we can assume the game is designed around life. But, it can be bypassed with shit like CI, which is basically what physical damage is right now. If you can outgear the main theme of the game you can overcome it but you don't really overpower it, you at best match it.

So no, it's not a general statement. As physical damage can be scaled up higher through conversions people will gravitate that way because of that they need to keep physical damage in check which is done by an armor system that works less as you do more physical damage.

I don't agree with the title of course, but the OP has a point that if most physical builds have to convert/add 50% of their physical damage to/as elemental to boost their damage, elemental does indeed dominate the game. Because even though you can call it partial conversion based on physical damage, it's half elemental. Sure, it's how it works in this game, but it's not really a physical build anymore, it's just physical based, just like rain of arrows with blackgleam / hatred / added fire / anger / wrath / WED is.

edit: Physical's biggest advantage right now is that it doesn't get mitigated much, but it's hard to use it effectively, since half of your damage is elemental. And so, "physical" builds require great gear because of the lack of boosting damage based on physical damage without adding elemental, so that their physical damage is high enough to use their advantage.

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Moosifer a écrit :

The other thing, which I'm getting so sick of waiting for is have it so physical damage rolls on off pieces (ring, ammy, gloves, quivers) is affected by IPD. If they did this physical bow builds would be opened up, sword and board would become much more interesting and these low damage uniques with interesting mechanics (darkscorn is the one that always comes to my mind) will be much better as a result.

Just wondering...does uniques like ezomyte's peak with +20% physical damage buff the flat damage from other pieces of gear? My guess would be yes, but here is why I would guess that:

I am thinking that like other mechanics in game...due to physical damage buffs from passive points being tied to a specific weapon, that the game does buff the contribution of physical damage from gear...it just doesnt show you the results in a meaningful way.

I say this with thoughts about the interaction between fireball and concentrated effect gem. In no way does the game tell you that the damage from fireball is going to be higher when linked to concentrated effect. There is a limitation that fireball may not explode and do aoe damage in some situations, so the game does not give you the buffed AoE damage numbers. But when the fireball explodes, it does buffed damage.

The same type of thing may be happening with buffs to physical damage from passives. It has a condition that may or may not be true, that the physical damage done by a specific weapon is buffed. So the game doesnt show you the buffed numbers, since it doesnt show conditional dps in many situations.

Is this a possibility of the actual interaction, or do we have some developers comments about a known bug of flat physical damage sources from accessories and uniques is not buffed by passive physical damage increase?

While physical damage does not kill as fast (in my limited experience), it may be worth considering the defensive properties in terms of leech and stun.

I think pure physical might be able to put out good damage but that is reliant on the melee phys on full life multiplier, which means CI and therefore is a non-standard phys build.

For multiplicative scaling, we have melee phys, on full life, conc effect, added fire and wed supports, along with hatred. In theory that should put out the highest possible melee damage but would be a real pain to build for (it would also require a lot of passive attack speed nodes to counter the lack of FA, something for anti stun/chill etc). And ofcourse >50% of the damage would end up being elemental.

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Moosifer a écrit :

Game isn't designed around pure physical, it's balanced around conversions.

again, in the context of the game there is partial conversion, full conversion and elemental. If you are going to argue pure this or pure that then yes physical will never win because that's not how it works in this game. Until they start adding more options for pure physical our only reality is conversion, just stop with this "it's not pure" crap.

So You just agreed to the OP - elemental damage dominates this game.

Nice job!

When people want to build characters they want to freely design them. Shame is that 50% of designs is not worth because of game mechanisms which could be (on paper) easily fixed.
Remove all + phys damage nodes, leave only HP on marauder - I dont think much will change in endgame meta.

Of course - with godlike gear something phys based can work. Everybody haves around 100-200 exalts for godlike phys gear. BTW, on RMT sites ex orb costs like... 10 dollars. So for 100 exals you have gear worth about 1000$.

BUT NO, WE ARE NOOB, PHYS DMG IS FINE, EASY, YOU NEED MORE PATIENCE