POE end game : spending 10+ mins trying to buy a map

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Lukhar a écrit :

What kind of problems would auction house add?

I'm sorry, but if you're not capable of trying to see the repercussions of easier trade, then I really don't feel like having a discussion. As a rule of thumb; if you're crying out for an AH based on 'I want to buy fast and easy' and 'I want to sell fast and easy' instead of trying to see the whole picture, you're a bit sidetracked.

But OK, let's play ball: An automated AH WILL make it A LOT easier to acquire gear. Not just because there are less AFK/offline listings, but more items will hit the market and more people will trade. What do YOU think this will do to the in-game progression?

From the trade manifesto:



So we are back to the rule of thumb; basing the future of the game - and its core mechanics - on egoistic preferences that WILL change the whole game for everyone. A lot of players don't want to be forced on the AH, but that will be the outcome. And of course, if you WANT an AH to be the alpha omega for every decision in this game, then OK.

I was SO fed up with playing T11 maps....to maybe get a T12 or 13.... which MIGHT drop a T14 or even T15....

I converted exalts into chaos and bought 4 T16 guardian maps. I chiseld all to 20%. I alched and chaosed them (just in case the vaal goes unid or unchanged...) until I had 80%Q+ and pack size 30+
Then vaaled all. I used 3 sacrifice fragments and a well rolled sextant, played then with zana bloodlines.
2 of those maps had a +Quantity of over 150%, highest was 166%IIQ.

I did it for the completion and for my personal feeling of progression.

So what did I get from these 4 maps and the Shaper himself?

I got 2 T15 maps ( out of the same map ). 0 T14. 2 T13. 0 T12. 3 T11.

An experiment with far, far over 100 chaos costs with a "gain" of not even 50% of the investment.

Now tell me, is this how a game should work? You "lose" by playing the content that is supposed to be the most rewarding? No Shagsbeard, don´t even try.

The current state of the game feels so broken, that I´m very, very close to quitting the league and play standard - where currency grows on trees and maps below T12 get vendored.

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Phrazz a écrit :

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Lukhar a écrit :

What kind of problems would auction house add?

I'm sorry, but if you're not capable of trying to see the repercussions of easier trade, then I really don't feel like having a discussion. As a rule of thumb; if you're crying out for an AH based on 'I want to buy fast and easy' and 'I want to sell fast and easy' instead of trying to see the whole picture, you're a bit sidetracked.

But OK, let's play ball: An automated AH WILL make it A LOT easier to acquire gear. Not just because there are less AFK/offline listings, but more items will hit the market and more people will trade. What do YOU think this will do to the in-game progression?

From the trade manifesto:

Spoiler

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Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.
People who are heavily engaged in trade perform fewer item upgrades to achieve their final build. They get there in fewer steps, because they can easily buy items that are close to what they need. Simply put, their character progression is more about trading than it is about getting items from monsters. We believe that it is more fun to slowly and iteratively upgrade a character over time and to have a longer journey to gear a character up. Knowing that a monster could drop something that improves your character is a great motivator for playing one more level!

Easy trade means reducing drop rates
Compare two hypothetical games. In the first game, trade is very difficult. The majority of items that can't be used by your character are not traded to other people. In the second game, trade is very easy. Many of the items that you can't use are traded to other people for items that you can. In the second game, because of trade, you have a much higher acquisition rate of useful items. While that sounds great if you want instant gratification, in reality it means that the second game either receives reduced drop rates relative to the first, or ends up being a whole lot easier and less challenging to achieve goals in.

Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great
Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league. The subset of players who regularly trade strongly overlaps with our core reddit and forum communities. Chances are, if you're reading this, then you're one of the top 10% of players in terms of engagement with advanced systems. The difference in magnitude of trading (and hence item acquisition and progress) between non/low-traders and heavy traders is gigantic. While a regular player would be lucky to accumulate a small handful of Exalted Orbs in a league, a trader might reach hundreds in the same timeframe. This enables them to fully-gear Shaper-capable characters while the non-trader is still in mid-tier maps or lower.

The significant differences in character power and player progression caused by trade has already created a situation where Path of Exile is very hard for some players and quite easy for others. Some people never stand a chance of seeing some of the Atlas of Worlds content, while others can rather quickly defeat it and are looking for new challenges. We're tentatively okay with the degree to which this occurs currently, but it would be much worse if trading were made substantially easier.

Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation
Another topic is automation. While we work hard to stamp out bots and abusive behaviour, it would be hard to completely eliminate the damage caused by a few trade bots with access to a fast trade system. If they have the ability to search out and buy items without having to talk to another player, then there would be some very large-scale economic consequences that would not be good for regular players.

So we are back to the rule of thumb; basing the future of the game - and its core mechanics - on egoistic preferences that WILL change the whole game for everyone. A lot of players don't want to be forced on the AH, but that will be the outcome. And of course, if you WANT an AH to be the alpha omega for every decision in this game, then OK.

I only asked what problems might AH bring. From your answer and that manifesto (thx for posting, googled rest), it seems to me like "causuals are not allowed top end game, only for no-lifer gridners. And if trying so, we gonna make it hard as possible". Maybe we should get allowed one trade per week or so.

Seriously, I have not much problems with system like is now, its GGGs playground, I backed this game, after that bought some points and never regreted it. Nobody is also forcing me to play this game :)

I have only answered on topic where some ppl dislike trading system, pointing on scams, price fixing, and like here, long waiting for answers. And yes, its MINE oppinion, not telling to anyone its the only way how it should be (right). If some ppl think that chasing uber-pixel kills and ladders in "every 3 months reset league" is so imporant and theirs life top goal....well, I can live with that, np.

The trade system is a problem inherent in the mind of players who didn't do as well as those selling the stuff they spent more time getting.

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Lukhar a écrit :

I only asked what problems might AH bring. From your answer and that manifesto (thx for posting, googled rest), it seems to me like "causuals are not allowed top end game, only for no-lifer gridners. And if trying so, we gonna make it hard as possible". Maybe we should get allowed one trade per week or so.

Seriously, I have not much problems with system like is now, its GGGs playground, I backed this game, after that bought some points and never regreted it. Nobody is also forcing me to play this game :)

I have only answered on topic where some ppl dislike trading system, pointing on scams, price fixing, and like here, long waiting for answers. And yes, its MINE oppinion, not telling to anyone its the only way how it should be (right). If some ppl think that chasing uber-pixel kills and ladders in "every 3 months reset league" is so imporant and theirs life top goal....well, I can live with that, np.

I know it's your opinion, and you are allowed to it. I just think (fear?) that some of the people advocating for an AH because they want "easier trading", don't know what will happen to the game if an AH would be implemented - both directly and indirectly.

I totally agree; the map drop rate is stupid (in lack of better words). It is the wrong way to artificially prolong the game and the wrong way to limit "special encounters". Items? Make them rarer for all I care. Uniques? The same. But actual content that you and your character are able to roflstomp with your eyes closed? Why limit that?

The map system is a MUCH bigger "flaw" than the trading system - IMHO!

Map system is fine. The drop rate is what is flawed and they will never admit that it is flawed.

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nononononono a écrit :

Map system is fine. The drop rate is what is flawed and they will never admit that it is flawed.

Ok, I'll bite. How is it flawed ?

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nononononono a écrit :

Except bots and rmt gonna buy everything and put them back up with ridiculous price.

You really think you alone can win against an army of gold seller and bots?

Funny how this is not a problem in most MMOs...

Gold sellers/bots will not bother with this. Why? Its easier to farm currency and sell it directly, rather than waste their time trying to corner the market. Gold selling is all about minimal investment. They use bots/hacks to auto-farm tons of currency and automate ad spam. They are not going to spend the time doing the maths to try and figure out if an item on an auction house is priced low enough for them to buy and re-sell.

And with any decent population size, the bots will spend all their time/currency buying items only to get undercut by legitimate players, so the bots end up in an infinite buying to re-sell loop, while constantly being undercut.

Now back to the topic of trading...

Ive sold quite a few items through my premium stash tab. Mostly low value maps, flasks, etc. I can respond to almost all whispers...even if its just to say "im in lab" or "im in a map". It takes only a few seconds to right click someone's name, click whisper, and type a quick message.

The only time I have been flooded with tons of messages was when I listed a tabula rasa for 11c and people started spamming me with messages trying to get it for cheap so that they could vendor it for a divine orb (i didnt know there was a vendor recipe for tabula rasa at the time). The odds of people actually buying gear from you seems to be extremely low...even if it has high life + 3 high resist rolls and priced for 1 chaos, people do not seem to care.

Even maps are very hit and miss...certain modifiers are nearly impossible to sell (players cannot regenerate life, mana and shield for example). Sure if im in a map, i dont port back right away but I tell the buyer im in a map. Its up to them if they want to wait for me to port back or not but at least they know whats going on.

Unless people are deliberately disabling their auto-afk message, most of the non-responsive sellers are not afk at all, especially when I can see 15 mins later that they are still marked as online and not afk.

Now, I had two interesting experiences earlier.

1. I tried to buy a rare, unidentified map. I copied and pasted the message from poe.trade, and got a normal map in the trade window. I explained it was the rare map. The seller complained he had no idea I wanted the rare map (even though the message contained the exact position of the map).

I told him that if he identified the maps first then poe.trade would be able to pick up the specific name of the map, but he said he couldnt be bothered and just chucked it all into his map stash. I dont know how that works. You have to right-click to set prices for each item manually, if you are doing that, you may as well ID it, especially since an identified map will sell faster most of the time.

And i dont understand why you would price normal and rare maps at the exact same price just to confuse yourself. If it was me, I would price the rare maps higher so even if i didnt ID it, i would know which rarity it was.

I dont even bother selling normal maps actually, because its not worth the hassle. If you are chucking tons of maps into your map stash and pricing everything the same, you are just confusing yourself. And if you are getting 1000+ maps...why bother selling each one of them? Chuck them into your stash, mass upgrade to a high tier and sell the top tier maps for a ton in one go. Why sell individual maps that are only worth 3 alch or less? You are just giving yourself more work to do.

2. I messaged a seller to buy a map and got an invite instantly. I went to his hideout and waited, and noticed that he was inviting a LOT of people. A few minutes later, he traded me and put the wrong map in the window. I explained that he put in the wrong map and waited for him to trade me again.

This is the part that gets weird. He just ignored me and kept inviting more people to the party, and they kept leaving after they finished their trades. After 4-5 people had left, and the seller was still ignoring me. I said in local chat that it was the wrong map (to differentiate it from the whispers he was getting) and waited.

Still, no reply at all. He just kept inviting more people and trading with them while ignoring me. After 4-5 more people had joined and left, I copied and pasted the poe.trade message again, whispered him, and he traded me right away, but he closed the trade window immediately without putting in anything. He refused to say anything at all.

I asked him in local chat what was going on, but he just refused to say anything and kept inviting and trading with others. After a few more minutes with no response, I left his hideout.

Almost immediately after I left his hideout, he whispered me to complain that he was getting a lot of whispers and couldn't be bothered to trade me a map worth only a few alch. Then why even bother listing it?

Strikes me as "player error". You dont pick up and vendor every item right? Because its not worth the time. Same logic here. You dont list and try to sell everything. You figure out whats the most profitable to sell and list those. If you are listing 1000+ low priced maps and getting swarmed...you only have yourself to blame really. Its like trying to pick up and vendor everything and then complaining that it takes too long.

Also its been said countless times but GGG doesnt seem to understand two things : 1. The game is balanced around trading because its nearly impossible to get stuff on your own (unless you farm for years) and 2. People who find it too troublesome to trade will quit and go elsewhere.

Diablo style games work great for casual players. Log on for an hour and mindlessly kill stuff. When you have to spend 10+ minutes downtime between each map trying to buy the next map you need because the trading system is awful, casual players get turned off and quit. If you are just grinding maps for xp or drops, cool, you can buy maps in bulk, but when you are trying to fill the atlas, you need to buy different maps.

I just got two of my friends to start playing. We just finished the fetid pool last night. They are very casual players. They are not going to spend an hour reading guides or watching boss videos or anything, they just want to get some quick monster killing action. Their skill trees are probably a mess already. One of them has already complained that the interface is very inconvenient and he is spending too much time managing his inventory and trying to figure out what to use, what to pick up and what to sell.

Eventually they will hit a gear wall where they need to trade to get gear, but the trading system is too time consuming for them and they will just give up and quit. I have spent hours and hours on poe.trade doing multiple searches at once to try and find all available listings for my next gear upgrade...all kinds of combinations of filters...messaging most sellers who simply do not reply...the average casual player will not do that and will just give up and quit. Messaging a dozen or more sellers to try and buy a map only to get zero response, not even a simple "im busy hold on" reply really kills enjoyment of the game.

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skulg a écrit :

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nononononono a écrit :

Map system is fine. The drop rate is what is flawed and they will never admit that it is flawed.

Ok, I'll bite. How is it flawed ?

When I first started doing maps, I thought that I would just keep running maps and get the next tier maps on my own. I didnt mind doing repeat runs to get the next tier map to drop since I was still making money and getting xp.

After spending several hours running mostly tier 1 maps, I realised I was stuck and it would take me forever to just get the t2 maps I needed. The t2 maps that I had unlocked didnt drop t3 maps either, so I was forced to go back to t1 maps to get t2 maps to drop, so that i could grind t2 maps to try and get t3 maps to drop. Everytime I failed to get the next tier to drop, I would need to start the whole chain of events from the beginning again...can you imagine trying to farm a t15 map on your own, all the way from t1, step by step, and going back to t1 everytime you ran out of maps?

Its just not realistic. You are forced to trade to progress, but trading involves messaging sellers who mostly do not respond.

The average player will just give up and quit. I have seen people give up in other games for WAY less than this.

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Heli0nix a écrit :

Still easier to just keep pming without waiting seller answer - First one inviting you win - others need to deal with it. Sad but if you care about your time it's often the only solution left -

So basically you've decided to be a part of the problem. Thanks. You're the type that floods my PoE with

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

@from playerwhoneedsamap Hi, I'd like to buy your Chateau map listed for 2C

Because you can't be bothered to stop and actually read a search result page. Good job, you're just as cancerous.