Crit vs. Non-crit Builds : Do non-crit builds need a buff?

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Tsokushin a écrit :

What's the problem with that? The entire point is to give non-crit a bit more damage, not further buff crit damage.

Stuns are based off of damage dealt, of which crit has plenty.

How the hell will that buff crit damage when they can't crit anymore by getting Resolute Technique in order to get the node behind it?

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Randomzx a écrit :

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Tsokushin a écrit :

What's the problem with that? The entire point is to give non-crit a bit more damage, not further buff crit damage.

Stuns are based off of damage dealt, of which crit has plenty.

How the hell will that buff crit damage when they can't crit anymore by getting Resolute Technique in order to get the node behind it?

Woops, my bad. Didn't read closely enough. It's a decent keystone, however I'm of the opinion that it should be a flat increase to physical damage (which would carry over through elemental conversions).

And I'd also say that it'd be far better to have stronger upfront damage as opposed to something that'd benefit dual-wielding much more than what was proposed.

The primary concern is boosting 2h non-crit damage, and what you proposed seems to benefit dual-wield far more than 2h.

However, beyond this, I do think we're in agreement that further non-crit enhancements to physical damage is needed beyond Resolute Technique.

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Tsokushin a écrit :

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Randomzx a écrit :

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Tsokushin a écrit :

What's the problem with that? The entire point is to give non-crit a bit more damage, not further buff crit damage.

Stuns are based off of damage dealt, of which crit has plenty.

How the hell will that buff crit damage when they can't crit anymore by getting Resolute Technique in order to get the node behind it?

Woops, my bad. Didn't read closely enough. It's a decent keystone, however I'm of the opinion that it should be a flat increase to physical damage (which would carry over through elemental conversions).

And I'd also say that it'd be far better to have stronger upfront damage as opposed to something that'd benefit dual-wielding much more than what was proposed.

The primary concern is boosting 2h non-crit damage, and what you proposed seems to benefit dual-wield far more than 2h.

However, beyond this, I do think we're in agreement that further non-crit enhancements to physical damage is needed beyond Resolute Technique.

Resolute technique isn't even an "enhancement". Two high roll accuracy on gear is enough to get you to 90+% accuracy on crit builds. It is even easier on melee builds on the south side of the tree since there is a lot more accuracy baked into nodes that you would normally get or easily accessible.

The only reason why it's any good is the location if you path by only makes it be 3-4 points investment at best unless you're a duelist/ranger. You can argue it frees up the two gear slots + some nodes, but if you're going non-crit without any other frills you have plenty of gear space/nodes anyway to go around that with nothing else to really get.


RT is outdated by the sheer fact that accuracy and getting high hit chances was much more difficult on gear/characters/nodes 3+ years ago when it was designed. But if we buff it to give more damage, it just makes the keystone 100% mandatory for all non-crit attack builds on the south side of the tree.

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RagnarokChu a écrit :

Resolute technique isn't even an "enhancement". Two high roll accuracy on gear is enough to get you to 90+% accuracy on crit builds. It is even easier on melee builds on the south side of the tree since there is a lot more accuracy baked into nodes that you would normally get or easily accessible.

The only reason why it's any good is the location if you path by only makes it be 3-4 points investment at best unless you're a duelist/ranger. You can argue it frees up the two gear slots + some nodes, but if you're going non-crit without any other frills you have plenty of gear space/nodes anyway to go around that with nothing else to really get.


RT is outdated by the sheer fact that accuracy and getting high hit chances was much more difficult on gear/characters/nodes 3+ years ago when it was designed. But if we buff it to give more damage, it just makes the keystone 100% mandatory for all non-crit attack builds on the south side of the tree.

Nope.

It would encourage diversity to have a small opportunity cost behind RT for a few damage/ailment boosting nodes as the only purpose of this move would be to bridge the gap between the damage potential you get even when not going EO, not to mention Crit, and not further nerf Crit Multi/Chance or get Accuracy to work with a harsher scaling as before.

You have to buff it just enough to be a viable alternative instead of the disheartening one that is at the moment. They could even add a flat 25/50% chance to cause ailments as you always hit and remove Crit always applying ailments and you would further get a choice to go RT and rely on high ailment rate, go Crit with uncertain ailments or anything in between.

They have to throw RT users "a bone" in the form of added functionality/damage as they buffed everything else, so instead of asking for further nerfs to "fun stuff", why not add some "fun stuff" for us too?

I'm pretty sure the non-existant "diversity" is by design, not by oversight.
GGG doesn't want people to "build around RT" and have the same damage.

Maybe they just consider it a stepping stone:
"I have shit gear and not enough passives" -> RT
"I have high resist rolls, so I can also affort accuracy and crit suffixes, and I also have the money to buy the same weapon, but with 2 additional suffixes." -> crit

That's why right next to it, you find a pretty potent crit cluster. Take it as a hint.

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When you take it like this, RT is somewhat fine.
I often take it, but transition into a little bit of crit in lategame, for a nice damage boost.
i.E.
axe -> sword + crit clusters
mace -> sceptre/staff + crit clusters

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Peterlerock a écrit :

I'm pretty sure the non-existant "diversity" is by design, not by oversight.
GGG doesn't want people to "build around RT" and have the same damage.

Reread the OP. Nowhere did I say that non-crit should ever have the same damage as crit.I just want the disparity between crit and non-crit to be lessened, especially in the case of 2handers. However, in a point for point basis, crit can complete the game, RT will take you to maybe t11.

So, no, they shouldn't be considered stepping stones. In an ideal place, every point on the tree can serve some particular build.

It's just that in this case, RT cannot take you anywhere worthwhile, it simply hasn't the damage necessary, and that's a shame because 2h is the most satisfying playstyle of this game to me, reminiscent of the original D2 and original style of this game.

As for your ideas towards buying gear now, SSF is here. It's now best to assume you're playing without trade.

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When you take it like this, RT is somewhat fine.
I often take it, but transition into a little bit of crit in lategame, for a nice damage boost.
i.E.

Taking that logic to its conclusion would end the game. Every other build except for this current "meta, 1 shot the entire screen, facetank anything" build are now simply stepping stones and it's foolish trying to take them up or asking for buffs to them.

That's not a game state we want to be and that's where that logic will go.

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Peterlerock a écrit :

I'm pretty sure the non-existant "diversity" is by design, not by oversight.
GGG doesn't want people to "build around RT" and have the same damage.

Maybe they just consider it a stepping stone:
"I have shit gear and not enough passives" -> RT
"I have high resist rolls, so I can also affort accuracy and crit suffixes, and I also have the money to buy the same weapon, but with 2 additional suffixes." -> crit

That's why right next to it, you find a pretty potent crit cluster. Take it as a hint.

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When you take it like this, RT is somewhat fine.
I often take it, but transition into a little bit of crit in lategame, for a nice damage boost.
i.E.
axe -> sword + crit clusters
mace -> sceptre/staff + crit clusters

Good point, but that was before Accuracy was so easily reached to have all along a 90% chance to hit with marginal investments.

Right now, you don't have that justification as you just need some nodes and at most 2 items to roll Accuracy to retain very high hit chance which always make some Crit investments more rewarding, even if not focusing heavily on it.

RT was a way to further improve your survivability, while also retaining sufficient damage, and that is what it fails to do at the moment. It blocks you from ending fights in an expediate manner, while also not improving your survivability sufficiently to compensate.

Having end game content tuned towards double dipping and Crit damage output pigeon holes RT characters to highly defensive builds that rely also on heavy block + spell block investments to feel tanky enough to have a chance to finish said content, instead of creating more diversity options to include those 2 handers users that don't rely on staffs or 1 handed dual wielders.

They should make RT a viable choice for those that prefer turtle speed + tanking more efficiently while still allowing them to reach end game with sufficient investments - so something that gives a bonus as a further incentive to not go Crit and still be able to be efficient end game would be perfect...

Double post.

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Peterlerock a écrit :

I'm pretty sure the non-existant "diversity" is by design, not by oversight.
GGG doesn't want people to "build around RT" and have the same damage.

Maybe they just consider it a stepping stone:
"I have shit gear and not enough passives" -> RT
"I have high resist rolls, so I can also affort accuracy and crit suffixes, and I also have the money to buy the same weapon, but with 2 additional suffixes." -> crit

That's why right next to it, you find a pretty potent crit cluster. Take it as a hint.

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When you take it like this, RT is somewhat fine.
I often take it, but transition into a little bit of crit in lategame, for a nice damage boost.
i.E.
axe -> sword + crit clusters
mace -> sceptre/staff + crit clusters

One small issue though. If you have shit equipment Crit is actually the better option because it provides easier damage. RT without good equip simply does not provide enough damage to even do something, exspecially if you are using a 1h weapon. Crit though is easy to scale, it used to be a very expensive choice but it isn't anymore.

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RT was a way to further improve your survivability, while also retaining sufficient damage, and that is what it fails to do at the moment. It blocks you from ending fights in an expediate manner, while also not improving your survivability sufficiently to compensate.

RT never provided defense. It just used to be harder to scale crit. Accuracy though... it is not something you get automatically because you need a few increases and a few flat boni, which unless you are going at least partially into dex means rolling some gear with those stats.

A good small fix for RT, which would also fit the idea of Resolute Techniques would be grant fortify on melee hit. This would open up some options for those builds and would be something that seems to fit the theme. Resolute Technique basically means that you are option for a safe reliable way to attack which would make sense if it includes being safer from enemy attacks.

I played mostly Shadow and i felt a real lack of non-crit MELEE. Since you are not taking advantage of both worlds (crit/RT) though you need to keep you accuracy.
For elemental Builds there is Elemental Overload.
I would suggest to slightly modify Elemental Overload so that non crit non RT builds get a buff from it. I would say a dmg Buff in whatever way would be adequate, so that stacking acc without investing into crit ist a legit choice.
I think Shadow, Witch and Ranger would profit most, but i think it would open a new Option of building around this whole theme wich was quite forgotten about.

(pls dont flame me because i like to play non crit non RT Melee)