Single target melee skills need damage tripled or quadrupled? maybe 100x?

"

Sidad a écrit :

I don't know if this was posted: "Edit3: I got permission to confirm that there are balance changes at the end of Breach, including big buffs to one-handed Melee, for example."

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/5m9aql/path_of_exile_trailers_through_time_part_2/dc1ztxt/

AWWW YISSS :D

"

Nephalim a écrit :

Static strike clear time: 1:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0imTr-NBI4

Leapslam clear time: 1:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aooA3neDhz8

cyclone clear time: 1:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIU_Nblk6Fc

It is only marginally slower than cyclone and both were slower than leap slam which is a freaking melee movement ability. I wonder how fast it takes these 600 exalt ES builds with mirrored ranged weapons to clear a T16 map.

74/83=11% slower, and the fact that you are taking the clear times on a single video as holding meaning in a map with a non-uniform layout is... well, need I say more. Apply logic to situation. Skills A and B require no stopping of movement to attack. Skill C through H require stopping movement to attack. All three skills instantly kill the majority of the screen. It's not rocket science, and it doesn't require first hand experience.

"

It's becoming clear that you:
1) have little or no knowledge or experience of end game builds or progression
2) instantly bandwagon onto anything you deem as overpowered and broken
3) accept the sheep mentality on all matters without questioning or experimenting

Approximately 96% of the top ~200 players who have available character tabs on hardcore breach league are ES or low life characters. Approximately 0% of them are using Retch (there was one somewhere, I can't find him anymore). There are none that I can find using any of the aforementioned skills.

You can call it sheep and bandwagon all you like; people flock to things that work. Again; leaving static strike aside, there is no other functional single-target melee build that competes with an equivalently geared "meta" build in any way, shape or form, at any gear level, except for retch.

The whole CI thing has almost as little to do with this discussion as retch does, too, btw. In a world where life pools could functionally reach a number high enough to function with VP GR, the meta would be life. Neither option intrinsically impacts on clearspeed in a meaningful way.

There are a handful of things in this game that are comparatively overpowered or under powered when compared to their contemporaries, and it isn't bandwagoning to say so; it's math. Double dipping is absurdly overpowered - it scales damage in an exponential way that builds not able to abuse cannot hope to match. ES pools available today are stupidly overpowered and enable game play that shouldn't be possible without absolute top-tier gear. The retch is absurdly overpowered when used with slayer, for the same reason that double dipping is (the scaling comes in a different way, but the end result is the same or worse). Single target melee skills are, for the most part, not in the same universe as their competition.

I don't need to experiment to know that 1+1=2 and I don't need to experiment to know why the above facts are true. They are explained by math, not by feels.

"

74/83=11% slower, and the fact that you are taking the clear times on a single video as holding meaning in a map with a non-uniform layout is... well, need I say more. Apply logic to situation. Skills A and B require no stopping of movement to attack. Skill C through H require stopping movement to attack. All three skills instantly kill the majority of the screen. It's not rocket science, and it doesn't require first hand experience.

Desperately grasping at straws at this point. Eleven percent slower is your bases of argumentation? The recorded time for every skill not leap slam and cyclone were him slapping on static strike and recording the first video meaning their run time can be VASTLY improved relative to leapslam and cyclone.

"

Approximately 96% of the top ~200 players who have available character tabs on hardcore breach league are ES or low life characters. Approximately 0% of them are using Retch (there was one somewhere, I can't find him anymore). There are none that I can find using any of the aforementioned skills.

You can call it sheep and bandwagon all you like; people flock to things that work. Again; leaving static strike aside, there is no other functional single-target melee build that competes with an equivalently geared "meta" build in any way, shape or form, at any gear level, except for retch.

The whole CI thing has almost as little to do with this discussion as retch does, too, btw. In a world where life pools could functionally reach a number high enough to function with VP GR, the meta would be life. Neither option intrinsically impacts on clearspeed in a meaningful way.

I don't need to experiment to know that 1+1=2 and I don't need to experiment to know why the above facts are true. They are explained by math, not by feels.

Nothing to disprove my points:

"

It's becoming clear that you:
1) have little or no knowledge or experience of end game builds or progression
2) instantly bandwagon onto anything you deem as overpowered and broken
3) accept the sheep mentality on all matters without questioning or experimenting

Did you check how many used valarium? You think looking at the ladder gives you end game experience and allows you to distill game balance into 1+1=2 statement? Pure gold.

Maybe you need better arithmetic to prove why retch slayer is the most overpowered thing in the game yet literally no one is using it over VP+GR.

"

Nephalim a écrit :

Show me a ranged build or any build that clears as fast as slayer retch.

Let's be honest man - that's one specific Ascendancy, using a specific belt - the combination of which we all know is broken.

You can't say lets ignore buffs for melee gems - because this one specific broken build is abusing an OP mechanic.

That's the exact same mistake they made with Spectral Throw being abused by low-life. It is not the gem - its the build. So why punish the gem - which, after nerfing twice, you later realize your mistake and have to buff the gem - twice.

The majority of melee builds are honestly struggling, but a Blade Vortex build, despite having similar radius to cyclone, is not. Why is that?

Why were cyclone Discharge builds so powerful, yet cyclone attack builds complete rubbish compared to them?

It's not a CI vs. life thing because you can build CI melee builds.

It's because the damage is much higher and much easier to scale - requiring far less nodes and way less expensive gear:


1) If Double Strike, Viper Strike, Dual Strike, Glacial Hammer, Sweep, etc. had damage similar to BV with a strong weapon - would we be having these problems?

2) If BV had shitty damage and scaled poorly such that damage was on par or less than regular melee gems - would people be playing BV?

"

Ceryneian a écrit :

"

Nephalim a écrit :

Show me a ranged build or any build that clears as fast as slayer retch.

Let's be honest man - that's one specific Ascendancy, using a specific belt - the combination of which we all know is broken.

Fairly ignorant to call something broken without ever having played it and in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary based on the meta sheep playing the very opposite.


Alright, here's a life based build not using a supposed broken interaction with retch doing a T16 map in 1:15 with static strike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEr2yrOh32U

Just going to chime in here and say that I respecced my slayer to be endless retch, but I tried a crit variant because it seems the dude who made it up had no such version which just seemed weird to me

in short, its a good build, but it still cost like 30ex minimum to be effective.

"

Nephalim a écrit :

"

Ceryneian a écrit :

"

Nephalim a écrit :

Show me a ranged build or any build that clears as fast as slayer retch.

Let's be honest man - that's one specific Ascendancy, using a specific belt - the combination of which we all know is broken.

Fairly ignorant to call something broken without ever having played it and in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary based on the meta sheep playing the very opposite.


Alright, here's a life based build not using a supposed broken interaction with retch doing a T16 map in 1:15 with static strike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEr2yrOh32U

I clicked the link in the youtube. That guy is wearing a mix of gear that might as well not even exist in the game (headhunter,+2 to weapon range atziri's disfavour), and gear that doesn't exist anymore (legacy versions of flasks and chests.)

Edit: I do agree that melee being bad is definitely overblown, but this was not evidence against their claims at all.

"

DurianMcgregor a écrit :

I clicked the link in the youtube. That guy is wearing a mix of gear that might as well not even exist in the game (headhunter,+2 to weapon range atziri's disfavour), and gear that doesn't exist anymore (legacy versions of flasks and chests.)

Edit: I do agree that melee being bad is definitely overblown, but this was not evidence against their claims at all.

Non of those things you listed actually define the build when using static strike and the ones that do can be offset with vaal pact or higher life node investment. The total run time when adjusted for non legacy gear will not be as good, but I doubt you could still find a faster build using 600 exalts worth of mirrored gear and even more legacy items using overpowered ranged skills and ES gear.

Frankly, nothing can prove the contrary if its a never ending list of Oh but hes using retch, Oh but hes using HH, Oh but hes using legacy items, Oh but hes not naked, Oh but hes using passive points.

The point is is that end game, melee, even skills generally considered worthless like SS can out reach even 1000 exalt ranged ES builds and surely no one in this entire thread has been able to provide videos of these overpowered non melee builds at ANY gear level doing remotely near what hes been able to accomplish.


Just because the meta and the general mass is stupid to not believe anything unless a streamer says is so not mean options do not exist. More than anything, this thread has shown how ignorant the vast majority of players are and the reason why poe goes through so many unjustified nerf cycles just to appease the warped perception of these same players.

"

Nephalim a écrit :

Fairly ignorant to call something broken without ever having played it and in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary based on the meta sheep playing the very opposite.

Wah?

Nah man you are absolutely right - that build is not broken at all. It is fairly balanced, and quite common in fact, for a melee build using the default attack to obliterate T16s.

I have often wondered why many other melee builds are not using the default attack on T16 maps.

"

Nephalim a écrit :

Alright, here's a life based build not using a supposed broken interaction with retch doing a T16 map in 1:15 with static strike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEr2yrOh32U

You found an anomaly - and want to use it to demonstrate that melee is strong? What kind of juvenile logic is that?


Dammit, we are all ignorant "sheep" for building melee the wrong way.

And all those guys on Hardcore ladder have been idiots for the past 2 years for not realizing how strong melee is.

They can all be leveling so quickly and safely with random melee gems like Static Strike.

I just had an idea - why didn't I think of making a CI melee build with hundreds of exalts, maybe try a cheap headhunter as well, and obliterate content. I'll use random melee gems, like Static Strike, and prove to everyone here that melee and melee gems are in fact - quite strong.

*rolls eyes

why are clear times even getting mentioned? almost every single target melee skill has a higher attack % than EQ you can do enormous damage with them.

Isn't the issue that there is no point in running a single target because the AoE is both safer and better? I'd rather run static strike than heavy blow for example and the most recent posted video here doesn't actually involve the guy doing any single target melee he's just chaining the best pots in the game while running between packs (like we all do), well flickering so the next shock wave gets them.

I mean really it isn't the damage of melee skills that needs changing, its their uptime and general usability in a game increasingly about blasting the entire screen constantly, the guy in said video is basically bypassing the issues with melee by outgearing the content to a ridiculous degree, so he's facetanking with instant leech instead of dealing with the fight mechanics.

There isn't anything wrong with what he/she is doing but if you remove outrageous leech the uptime of melee compared to ranged quickly gets gutted, resulting in you being a higher risk character with no damage reward, to get the damage reward you have to crush the content, if you crush the content whats the point basing anything off it?