Hard and soft caps on stats

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Antnee a écrit :

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

The problem with crying "Nerf!" over something like CoC is that it's popularity is not just because it is strong. It's one of the more fun/exciting builds to play. One of the reasons games like WoW and LoL are bleeding out is because they have lived long enough to overnerf their own game, and all the excitement they once had is gone in the name of "balance."

Does it need a nerf? Probably. Would it be easy to kill the thing with almost any nerf? Absolutely. It's a fine line to walk.

It's pretty simple. Reduce the speed at which the thing can happen, and proportionately increase the power of the thing. I have no problem whatsoever with the power of things, it's only the speed (and frequency) of things that is an issue.

95% -> 50% crit chance
500% -> 1000% crit multi

(Don't nitpick the math, you get the idea.)

That is "essentially" what D3 does and its a shitty system as it creates less options, mot more options in the process.

Despite all of this talk regarding crit, for some reason, instead of any of the other points he mentioned, RT builds still can kill themselves to reflect and can still do decent amount of damage as well.

Part of what is "suppose" to make crit special is that it can utilize all 6 stats on weapons and far more stats on jewelry and such, people think that all crit builds are like CoC for some reason and that simply isn't the case, CoC is an outliner and has been a large issue for a while, it really only got exponentially worst with things like div cards, ascendancy classes and overall buffs to spells.


There are many interactions regarding crit+another effect, by reducing the chance to crit, but increasing the damage porportionally you are really only nerfing those secondary effects, not really the power of the build, especially in the circumstances of faster attacking\casting abilities, which is why it is crucial to leave the cap alone and address true issues like COC, which Chris already mention is in fact getting changed.


This is coming from someone that rarely plays crit builds, the idea of capping simply is poor choice among the options, which is why it isn't likely to get changed.

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Or, that the game in its current state is so monumentally complex that "balance" can never be achieved.

And that shouldn't globally affect all crit builds when there are CLEAR outliners that can be addressed first, its like dropping 10 bombs on a tiny island instead of just carefully picking off key targets.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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Antnee a écrit :

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

The problem with crying "Nerf!" over something like CoC is that it's popularity is not just because it is strong. It's one of the more fun/exciting builds to play. One of the reasons games like WoW and LoL are bleeding out is because they have lived long enough to overnerf their own game, and all the excitement they once had is gone in the name of "balance."

Does it need a nerf? Probably. Would it be easy to kill the thing with almost any nerf? Absolutely. It's a fine line to walk.

It's pretty simple. Reduce the speed at which the thing can happen, and proportionately increase the power of the thing. I have no problem whatsoever with the power of things, it's only the speed (and frequency) of things that is an issue.

95% -> 50% crit chance
500% -> 1000% crit multi

(Don't nitpick the math, you get the idea.)

That is "essentially" what D3 does and its a shitty system as it creates less options, mot more options in the process.

Any comparisons to D3 are completely invalid, as the complexity of the skill systems are magnitudes apart.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Part of what is "suppose" to make crit special is that it can utilize all 6 stats on weapons and far more stats on jewelry and such, people think that all crit builds are like CoC for some reason and that simply isn't the case, CoC is an outliner and has been a large issue for a while, it really only got exponentially worst with things like div cards, ascendancy classes and overall buffs to spells.

Crit in general is a problem. 95% chance makes the term crit meaningless; as it is now, it's simply a damage multiplier. It feels exactly the same as an RT build when you crit that often.

Crit means "Fuck, that was a nasty hit", not "Creamy, consistent flow of death"

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goetzjam a écrit :

This is coming from someone that rarely plays crit builds, the idea of capping simply is poor choice among the options, which is why it isn't likely to get changed.

Not to pull this old card, but go make yourself a capped crit chance char. Tell me it doesn't feel absolutely bizarre that every hit is a crit.

CoC is not the only issue here.

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Prisus a écrit :

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DirkAustin a écrit :

Balancing in this game works like this right now:

Top players use a skill with a 6L item and beat every boss in a matter of seconds. GGG nerfs said skill and in the process casual players that used the skill alone or with 2 or 3 or so support gems got a build ruined.
Top players move to a newly released OP skill, same thing as above and where do we go from here?

Why would new people pay for this game if they got no option other than either leaving outright because they cant keep a build they like for long or try to become a top player and use only builds GGG allows with those nerfs.

Can't really disagree with this line of thinking...

To be fair though some of the skills that got nerfed were even strong in a 5L. Voltaxic chaos spark is one that comes to mind. Also bladefall trapper this league is pretty strong on a 5L as well...at least strong enough to do 97% of content in the game.

Agree with both, DirkAustin and Prisus. Balance something GGG would never be close or understand. Theres always super weak (useless) skills and insane fucking broken uber skills, and GGG never change it or better say - never EVER try to do that.

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Antnee a écrit :

CoC is not the only issue here.

But it is the largest issue, so how about we address that first instead of just completely changing a system that has been in the game basically since day 1.

And I believe my dead eye ranger (wander) was crit capped. Don't know how the "relevance" to the actual issue is, wanders can be good, but requires some decent investment.

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DirkAustin a écrit :

Now, my suggestion wont be liked by many, but listen to this idea:

Balance skills by making items not able to roll 6L anymore but make it max 4L instead. Smaller choices, yes, but more balance in the long run. COC+attack skill+Spell+??? <--- more balanced than any 6L ever could be.

Anyones thoughts?

No

Do you not understand how this game works?

Do you not realize they are changing CoC next patch\expansion?

Why must you focus like they aren't going to do anything about it, when clearly they have stated intentions to do so.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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Chadwixx a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

The 50% cap is "essentially" what D3 does

Diablo 3 doesnt have caps. Rift (mmo) has hard and soft caps for things like crit power, block etc

No one cares what an MMO has, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

As for D3, it isn't hard capped, but the formula states 10% crit chance for 100% crit multi.

That's not a limitation. That's an optimization. It's a player choice. You get the most bang for your buck from having your crit chance equal to 10% of your damage multiplier. This game has the exact same optimization (possibly different values) but it's more complicated because chance to hit, status effects, and on crit effects are involved. In D3, damage was the only thing you worried about.

And I think reflect does belong in the conversation. It's one of those soft caps. Damage too high for your defense - you have to lower damage or raise defense. Leaving the choice to the player instead of telling him what his choice is.

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mark1030 a écrit :

That's not a limitation. That's an optimization. It's a player choice. You get the most bang for your buck from having your crit chance equal to 10% of your damage multiplier. This game has the exact same optimization (possibly different values) but it's more complicated because chance to hit, status effects, and on crit effects are involved. In D3, damage was the only thing you worried about.

And I think reflect does belong in the conversation. It's one of those soft caps. Damage too high for your defense - you have to lower damage or raise defense. Leaving the choice to the player instead of telling him what his choice is.

It really depends on the type of reflect and the type of build.

You make it seem like crit builds are ones that have issues with reflect, when I found in fact I had far more issues with reflect on my RT builds, then my crit builds.


It is limitation in that due to the way itemization works in D3 you are going to be limited in what you can actually do to optimize your crit chance, vs crit multi, when everyone does the same thing, because its the most efficient way, then that is terrible balancing as there really is not true alternative, unlike in PoE where, like you say there are many total things to consider.

But as to the focus, there are many points OP made, seems like the whole "reflect\crit" thing could really just be its own topic, which it has been and was discussed quite a lot.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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mark1030 a écrit :

That's not a limitation. That's an optimization. It's a player choice. You get the most bang for your buck from having your crit chance equal to 10% of your damage multiplier. This game has the exact same optimization (possibly different values) but it's more complicated because chance to hit, status effects, and on crit effects are involved. In D3, damage was the only thing you worried about.

And I think reflect does belong in the conversation. It's one of those soft caps. Damage too high for your defense - you have to lower damage or raise defense. Leaving the choice to the player instead of telling him what his choice is.

You make it seem like crit builds are ones that have issues with reflect, when I found in fact I had far more issues with reflect on my RT builds, then my crit builds.
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Where did I make it seem like that? The only crit stuff I've said was to refute your claim that it's different in D3. It's not. It's exactly the same. There are just more things a crit does in this game than that game. you are optimizing damage if you keep crit chance and crit multi in a 1:10 balance.

Say you have a suffix available and can add 5% crit chance or 50% crit multi. Which gives you more damage?

30% crit chance and 250% crit multi - the multi is better
30% crit chance and 350% crit multi - the chance is better
30% crit chance and 300% crit multi - either choice gives the same amount of damage

Exactly the same thing as in d3.

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mark1030 a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

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mark1030 a écrit :

That's not a limitation. That's an optimization. It's a player choice. You get the most bang for your buck from having your crit chance equal to 10% of your damage multiplier. This game has the exact same optimization (possibly different values) but it's more complicated because chance to hit, status effects, and on crit effects are involved. In D3, damage was the only thing you worried about.

And I think reflect does belong in the conversation. It's one of those soft caps. Damage too high for your defense - you have to lower damage or raise defense. Leaving the choice to the player instead of telling him what his choice is.

You make it seem like crit builds are ones that have issues with reflect, when I found in fact I had far more issues with reflect on my RT builds, then my crit builds.
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Where did I make it seem like that? The only crit stuff I've said was to refute your claim that it's different in D3. It's not. It's exactly the same. There are just more things a crit does in this game than that game. you are optimizing damage if you keep crit chance and crit multi in a 1:10 balance.

Say you have a suffix available and can add 5% crit chance or 50% crit multi. Which gives you more damage?

30% crit chance and 250% crit multi - the multi is better
30% crit chance and 350% crit multi - the chance is better
30% crit chance and 300% crit multi - either choice gives the same amount of damage

Exactly the same thing as in d3.

Well the difference is in D3 monster scaling is never ending, whereas in this game that isn't the case.