Elementalist sucks. Never pick over assassin.

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Emphasy a écrit :

[...]

a) Penetration basically reduces the max resist of an enemy. If an enemy has 75, 150 or over 9000 Resistance with 20% Penetration he always has 55%.

b) Most of the enemies actually have no resistance at all to certain Elements. This means that Penetration always makes this resistance negative, technically being a more multiplier to damage

So what the Inquisitor basically does by removing resistance from the equation is potentially reducing his own damage. Ignoring resistances sounds cool and is exspecially nice early to avoid having to use a Penetration gem and it is also nice for Multi-Elemental Setups like Discharge, however for a straight Elemental Caster it might not necessarily be the bad thing, exspecially with 2 curses.

And Non-Crit was always a rather solid choice with some spells. It worked with Bladefall, mostly due to the power of the spell to be fair and it also worked with Arc. Crit of cause has the potential to turn any spell into devastation, which does has a fair price on the other hand.

"

You need to scale your damage somehow, and Assassin/Inquisitors make far better casters especially when you go crit. I'm sure someone will come up with some interesting Elementalists builds, but in the end they will still suffer from the on kill effects and the fact that casters need to kill shit quickly or likely die. Casters in the end can really only take two to three hits at most in endgame scenarios (maybe like 4-5 if you get ultra tanky and have leech or something), so not being able to kill things fast enough actually does become a major issue, particularly in tier 10+ maps where things start to do ridiculous amounts of damage.

Spells have the biggest amount of multipliers avaible to them. So they suffer far less from not going crit than attacks do. Just compare a non-crit caster to a RT-Melee. The caster can still do fine, the RT-Melee however runs out of options to scale. And with Elemental Overload added there is even more.

And again, damage is not an issue. Casters have enough, and for the defenses both Occultist and Elementalist stand far better than the assassin. If the Assassin cannot deal damage he runs into issues. And one example of that could be a simple proximity shield. An Occultist who started ES recovery is almost unkillable for 4 seconds, because he even recovers while taking damage, at a base rate of 16% max/ES per second and can more than double that if I'm not mistaken, so he has a far easier time closing in and killing the proximity shield than an assassin has. The Elementalist on the other hand can basically freeze the entire map permanently because he has Elemental Conflux. And most map bosses either spawn mobs themself or come with a big pack themself so you even have the potential to freeze/burn/shock them too. 20% means that every 5th enemy will give you this buff. And 4 seconds is a really really long time to deal damage mostly unhindered. Of course an assassin with a cold spell has the same options... however the Elementalist can do it with just about everything and with all the damage. Adding more Lightning Damage to your Fireball? Cool more Freeze Duration. Getting an Unholy Might proc on your Bladefall? Cool more Freeze Duration.

It is really not that bad. And really the only thing the Assassin provides is the biggest tool tip dps. That is really all.

Inquisitor is superior to elementalist for a very simple reason. He negates potential resistances. No matter how the map is rolled, no matter what enemy, he deals a lot of damage. you might deal more damage to trash, rares, etc with stacking elemental penetration as an elementalist, but this requires a massive investment, but once you roll elemental equilibrium and 80% resistance, or 80% resistance and curse immunity you will weep. the inquisitor? he doesn't notice. you are worse against as trash, that evaporates anyway if you sneeze at it, but against bosses you are king. all mods, innate resistances are moot. you crit they die.

it is the same reason voltaxic and chaos damage is so popular, you can't roll mods that cripple you severly. elementalist suffers from it, inquisitor doesn't. elementalist needs penetration and curses to regain damage lost to resistances, inquisitor simply stacks crit(damage) to regain damage lost to resists.

also conflux doesn't freeze. you still need cold damage to freeze.

regards, whispering ice conflux emberwake elementalist.

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RestInPieces a écrit :

Ofc elementalist sucks. I was saying it before it come out all the time but some people were like "let's test him first don't be hasty".

Most of his skills are useless on bosses or useless niche WS and DC bonuses. The thresholds of elements are a joke after the nerfs anyway. Can't proc elemental status on bosses no matter how much you have invested in durations or crit. You can only proc them on trash mobs which are dying in a couple hits anyway.

Did all of you overlook my post or what?...

Before another single one of you bashes Elementalist, please read my damned post.

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

I think you underestimate Assassin. You can run controlled destruction gem in a caster setup and still maintain 95% CC while witch will have <60% even with 8 PC. Thats huge. Granted the rest of the nodes suck you only need 4 as assassin haha.

As an Elementalist, I run 80% crit chance with my triple Freezing Pulse totem witch with Controlled Destruction as her 6th link (without power charges).

"

JNF a écrit :

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RestInPieces a écrit :

Ofc elementalist sucks. I was saying it before it come out all the time but some people were like "let's test him first don't be hasty".

Most of his skills are useless on bosses or useless niche WS and DC bonuses. The thresholds of elements are a joke after the nerfs anyway. Can't proc elemental status on bosses no matter how much you have invested in durations or crit. You can only proc them on trash mobs which are dying in a couple hits anyway.

Did all of you overlook my post or what?...

Before another single one of you bashes Elementalist, please read my damned post.

"

Aim_Deep a écrit :

I think you underestimate Assassin. You can run controlled destruction gem in a caster setup and still maintain 95% CC while witch will have <60% even with 8 PC. Thats huge. Granted the rest of the nodes suck you only need 4 as assassin haha.

As an Elementalist, I run 80% crit chance with my triple Freezing Pulse totem witch with Controlled Destruction as her 6th link (without power charges).

Yea we read it but i don't think you quite comprehend.

In your setup there you use entire two gems which could have been damage multiplier gems just to get your crit to a subpar level compared to assassin, and probably have invested far more passives into crit than you would as an assassin. What do you get for all that? Shock only - which at max is 50% more and can be gotten with many highly optimized assassin builds.

So i don't really know what you are trying to prove here - assassin far far outweighs that bonus.

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As for the guy getting hard when thinking about inquisitor, he's flat wrong in terms of optimizing damage. Inquisitor may be good with random gear but the more insane gear you get the further ahead assassin pulls. Imagine one low life assassin with 4-5 blashemy curses and penetration gem. You will not be able to reap that more than insane benefit as an inquisitor at all, in that way inquisitor shares quality with resolute technique in that it will easy get you something strong, but will prevent you from the strongest scaling. Btw that will leave even bosses in negative resistances as it can even agaisnt bosses curse resistance give -119% resistance to your chosen element. On 90-95% of content it will be a negative 173% resistance to monsters.. Inquisitor go home. It can get up to 50% increased curse effect, bosses have -60% effect so the reality of the case is that bosses have 1-2 penetration curses with 90% of regular effect plus a penetration gem.

And even then, since we are talking about spells mostly in this thread, you will never get the crit amount that assassin will even if you invest far more.


Let's take a look at a situation which is under some of the worst conditions. 2 penetration curses with 0 increased effect and a pentration gem versus map bosses(60% curse reduction). That will give up to 74% resist penetrated. This is something everyone can get, every build and will in the worst of cases be roughly equal to inquisitor, and on average fights can add more in total than inquistor. The difference is you will be able to take assassin class while still reaping a benefit that's greater than inquisitor while also leaving inquisitor entirely not needed.

Also without wasting gems and tons of passives to get decent crit on inquisitor spell caster, you will probably be looking at something like 56-65% crit, again you can see assassin in in that department also an insane increase to damage - and you get almost a crit damage gem on top for free.

It really is beyond me why assassin isn't more popular, it is by far the most insane class for min/maxing the most dpsy builds, but i guess maybe it doesn't lend itself to most people - like it requires a lot more gear to optimize, where other classes are straigtforward, it likes ES more than life but won't be picked for new leagues first es chars i think because there occultist is superior. I still believe in some months when people catch on to the theorycrafting we will see more assassins, but we will see

Also CoC scales something so insane with asssassin, that it is beyond control. Playing CoC i can hardly comprehend why someone would not go assassin, nothing even comes close to scaling, but i guess maybe for hardcore because they go super tanks like champions.

Assassin might not be more popular due to a very simple reason: he is redundant

it is 'win more' situation. Assassin can dish INCREDIBLE damage, noone denies that (or at least - should not) but given that most builds ALREADY, without ANY ascendancy selected deal 'enough' damage - it is bordering 'meh, whatever'

my RT melee guys one shot packs up to T12 maps. and RT melee is hardly something known for damage. Crit builds do that since late 90's.

So while it is true that i can pick Assassin and then spend some passives on non-dps related stuff I'd rather go and do something new and interesting - I already have power. Been there, done that, moved on.

So while Assassin is no undoubtedly a king of pure DPS and uber tooltip warrior of choice - he cannot do stuff like Occultist perma ES recharge or 100% block->spell block from Gladiator. You know - the interesting stuff, not pure numbers. Assassin can get us some passives - but passives from the tree are all doing 'same old boring stuff'

and lets ask ourselves a simple question - what % of players play T13-15 maps? these things drop so rarely that it is better to sell them and chain easier T10-12 maps. For these the Assassin is not needed

The build i made that IMO had the potential to clear faster in PHC was an elementalist, VERY out of meta:

Elemental cunflux + Beacon of destruction
Liege of the primordial

Leap slam with WED + Fire Pen + increased AoE + Faster attacks
Oro's Sacrifice as weapon

swap increased AoE for Conc Effect on bosses

Auras: Warlord's Mark + Flammability

At level 70 i had 6.5k fire damage per hit with a total of 80% fire penetration with flammability and fire pen. With conc effect 10k+ damage

ANY pack was dead in 2 leap slams

Shame it had only 7k armor and died to those damn spike exploding mobs on the fifth map i tried -.-' maybe i still have a video somewhere

with 6 end charges, 10k+ armor and 5k+ life it really could have had potential, maybe enfeeble instead of flammability would have helped too

For elementalist, i would really like if Elemental cunflux stacks durations instead of refresh itself... 4 seconds is really too low, sometimes even not enough to pass to another pack of mobs and with enough bad luck you can't even get it in a 5+ mob pack

So my suggestion: increase chance of cunflux to 25% and let the duration stack

"

Crackmonster a écrit :

Yea we read it but i don't think you quite comprehend.

In your setup there you use entire two gems which could have been damage multiplier gems just to get your crit to a subpar level compared to assassin, and probably have invested far more passives into crit than you would as an assassin. What do you get for all that? Shock only - which at max is 50% more and can be gotten with many highly optimized assassin builds.

So i don't really know what you are trying to prove here - assassin far far outweighs that bonus.

Actually, you are the one that does not get it (although trying to decipher your broken English had me nearly at the point of "not getting it")(I'm wording it this way because your continued rude tone towards Charan and Myself merits this).

First of all, you don't seem to understand the key point of Assassin which is in plain sight:
"100% more Critical Strike Chance against Enemies that are on Full Life"

So let me break it down for you like this: After your initial hit, you no longer get any bonus to your critical strike chance. Comprende?

Second of all: Elementalist gives you sustained damage, which is far more useful for high hp targets, such as bosses, when you're not able to one shot said boss (show me an Assassin build that can one-shot a boss in a tier 12+ map please). My tooltip hits 95k dps without using a flask, simply by dropping a totem and spamming Rallying Cry. This is not taking Cold Penetration and Frostbite into account, so my dps is actually a lot higher.

Third: You state that I'm wasting a gem slot (two? lol), but I'll argue that I waste nothing because I have 730% critical strike multiplier between my gear and my skill tree. I challenge you to show me where/what multiplier I can get that beats 80% critical strike chance each time I use a totem, without power charges and with Controlled Destruction as my 6th link. I call bullshit.

Again, I don't think you know what you're talking about, because:

A) I don't shock anything, I freeze everything. (where in the hell did you get shock from?)

B) You don't seem to grasp the concept that Elementalist is sustained damage over time, not a burst (which really isn't much different from the on kill affects offered by Elementalist when you look at it in those terms).

C) You mentioned that I'm "wasting two gem slots", but yet you didn't mention which gem slots I neglected to use for other multipliers (there aren't any, so that's bullshit as well).

D) I challenge you to actually reply with some math or facts before you spout off more rhetoric, because that's all you're doing at this point. All of this bullshit about "I made leet builds back before anyone else was leet" is no more relevant to this thread and your credibility than my saying that, "I'm a mother-fucking astronaut."

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JNF a écrit :

"

Crackmonster a écrit :

Yea we read it but i don't think you quite comprehend.

In your setup there you use entire two gems which could have been damage multiplier gems just to get your crit to a subpar level compared to assassin, and probably have invested far more passives into crit than you would as an assassin. What do you get for all that? Shock only - which at max is 50% more and can be gotten with many highly optimized assassin builds.

So i don't really know what you are trying to prove here - assassin far far outweighs that bonus.

Actually, you are the one that does not get it (although trying to decipher your broken English had me nearly at the point of "not getting it")(I'm wording it this way because your continued rude tone towards Charan and Myself merits this).

First of all, you don't seem to understand the key point of Assassin which is in plain sight:
"100% more Critical Strike Chance against Enemies that are on Full Life"

So let me break it down for you like this: After your initial hit, you no longer get any bonus to your critical strike chance. Comprende?

Haha, don't embarresh yourself.

First of all i couldn't give a shit less what tone u speak to me i will just derive your argument from it and if i want to i reply. If you get mad i honestly argue you, then that is your problem.

Second, you seriously gave me a rofl saying the bolded part.

That passive point you refer to is not one i would take on most builds. You don't seem to know exactly why assassin is OP. Let me tell you. The 4 pointer called deadly infusion gives you crit per power charge and multiplier. 8% multipler per power charge, which is so so, but the crit chance it gives is insane. It gives 0.5% base crit chance per power charge. Meaning at 7 power charges you will get extra 3.5% base chance. Most spells are 5-6% crit chance so lets assume 5.5% and add 3.5% to that to get 9% base crit chance. That is a whooping 63% more constant crit chance, which is why assassin is insane. Gets even more crazy with additional power charge items.

EDIT: hmm, yours is a niche build with regards to gemming and u also use a 7L. But yea, we could take empower and depending on your build we could also get added lightning/chaos/cold although cold is probably only around as good as crit damage. I also have never cared for totem builds but possibly lmp would improve efficiency, wouldn't know, don't play. And yes i did the math on all of these before talking.. empower was around a 32% increase, the added lightning(before considering build increases to only cold) was 26% more without empower and 19% with.

Even more possible it is that soul mantle is a bad optimizing choice which would push one link from your 7L and make it a 6L, meaning it would be two big damage ones you are losing. But i dont know about totem builds i don't like them.

Why do i talk about your shocks? Because in your first post that u complained we didn't read, you said you chose elementalist(all status ailments). Now you are saying you don't shock - then what in the hell are you using it for? Just proliferating freezes? Rofl.

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Crackmonster a écrit :

Haha, don't embarresh yourself.

Embarrass myself? I think you're embarrassing yourself well enough with that broken English while feigning superiority. Perhaps you're lacking in other areas as well, triggering your need to wave your e-peen around as if you've really got something special to brag on.

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Crackmonster a écrit :

First of all i couldn't give a shit less what tone u speak to me i will just derive your argument from it and if i want to i reply. If you get mad i honestly argue you, then that is your problem.

I've already come to the conclusion that you are a lower form of life, so you're hardly worth my getting angry. If you really think that I'm angry, you're more delusional than I thought possible.

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Crackmonster a écrit :

That passive point you refer to is not one i would take on most builds. You don't seem to know exactly why assassin is OP. Let me tell you. The 4 pointer called deadly infusion gives you crit per power charge and multiplier. 8% multipler per power charge, which is so so, but the crit chance it gives is insane. It gives 0.5% base crit chance per power charge. Meaning at 7 power charges you will get extra 3.5% base chance. Most spells are 5-6% crit chance so lets assume 5.5% and add 3.5% to that to get 9% base crit chance. That is a whooping 63% more constant crit chance, which is why assassin is insane. Gets even more crazy with additional power charge items.

So once more you're admitting that Assassin is a one-trick pony, because without power charges, it's not all that it is cracked up to be. You have yet to address how Assassin is better for my build than Elementalist, nor have you stated why/how I have wasted gem slots. You are the one that still does not get it.

Ahahah!

Get wrecked son!

"

sidtherat a écrit :

Assassin might not be more popular due to a very simple reason: he is redundant

it is 'win more' situation. Assassin can dish INCREDIBLE damage, noone denies that (or at least - should not) but given that most builds ALREADY, without ANY ascendancy selected deal 'enough' damage - it is bordering 'meh, whatever'

my RT melee guys one shot packs up to T12 maps. and RT melee is hardly something known for damage. Crit builds do that since late 90's.

So while it is true that i can pick Assassin and then spend some passives on non-dps related stuff I'd rather go and do something new and interesting - I already have power. Been there, done that, moved on.

So while Assassin is no undoubtedly a king of pure DPS and uber tooltip warrior of choice - he cannot do stuff like Occultist perma ES recharge or 100% block->spell block from Gladiator. You know - the interesting stuff, not pure numbers. Assassin can get us some passives - but passives from the tree are all doing 'same old boring stuff'

and lets ask ourselves a simple question - what % of players play T13-15 maps? these things drop so rarely that it is better to sell them and chain easier T10-12 maps. For these the Assassin is not needed

Damn i had written a big reply to this but it must have disappeared or failed to submit somehow..

Anyway i'm out of time but to make it short. I think you say a lot of true points here, but what i slightly disagree with is:

Dps and how fast you can apply it to everything on screen is that which separates the best builds from the decent builds. Dps is one of the best defenses in poe and in higher maps most builds have increased risk of dying due not enough dps to kill them fast enough so they get to land hits. Instant leech = dps far better than constant es regen.

Etc etc etc. Yea. also it enables builds that before you wouldn't do because you couldn't scale the damage enough, such as 2h attack crit builds etc.

Defenses and offenses go together, and if your build can for almost no investment scale the dps greatly, it can instead spend more investment on defenses etc.

Yes it is a bit boring and that, but so are most classes like champion, just pure numbers. Elementalist is one of the more styleful but that is not enough in itself, it needs number scaling.

Btw my best build is RT too. Also i tried aegis builds with 100% passive tree in defenses etc, i don't just follow the "meta" either, luckily not with assassin either, but as it often goes when i set my eyes on something.. eventually people find out and it gets nerfed.