Can we talk about Leech IMMUNITY?

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kamil1210 a écrit :

Never gonna happen! The day i need to suck Mana pots on my chars to sustain skills is the day i gonna quit PoE!

It's an all-or-nothing premise. Either put in immunities for fucking everything, or don't have any at all*.

*Special encounters like Atziri/Rigwald/Nemesis/Bloodlines are actually an appropriate place to put mechanics like that. General map mods are not!

As with curses there should not be an immunity, but less effectiveness modifier.

Curses, leech and such factors are all a vital core of many builds.

The reason leech immunity is much worse than reflect or even curse immunity is because there's no counterplay.

We have many ways of dealing with reflect these days: sibyl's, phys to light, block, acro, evasion, maxres.

We have some ways of dealing with curse immune: pcoc, blood rage (if using curses for charges), life leech (if using them for leech), or an extra aura like grace or determination if using them for defense. Other than that it's just a less damage mod of which we have many.

For leech immunity there isn't much counterplay (relevant to builds that leech in the first place). The two main ones are Kingsguard which requires Voll's and requires you to use discharge or Romira. The second is LGOH, which ES builds and spellcasters can't use.

I did a no leech, no regen, ele reflect village ruin yesterday on my lowlife bladefall. I managed to complete it, but I would never have done it with experience, it was just something stupid to do, and it basically cut the power of my character down to 20%. Without the no leech mod I would have lost only 15-20% of my overall power (measured as a product of DPS and Survivability).

Take out leech immunity, curse immunity, elemental status immunities.

All they do is fuck over specific builds for no good reason.

You want to challenge players, turn all of the above into resistances/reductions.

Leech reduction. Curse resistance. Reduced elemental status effect duration.

Why should my otherwise successful build be entirely unable to kill Atziri, or fight Rigwald, or run a random map?

It is god damn ridiculous, and just disincentivizes builds that rely on the select few mechanics that GGG have chosen to single out for this brutal treatment.

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Astarte911 a écrit :

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kamil1210 a écrit :

Never gonna happen! The day i need to suck Mana pots on my chars to sustain skills is the day i gonna quit PoE!

get mana on kill or mana regen

"

Ashen_Shugar_IV a écrit :

It's an all-or-nothing premise. Either put in immunities for fucking everything, or don't have any at all

We can simplify that to "don't have any" immunities "at all."

I don't have a problem with maps being a Chaos sink. Really, I don't. But when it is treated primarily as a Chaos sink, and its purpose becomes purely economical and 0% gameplay, that is bullshit.

Immunities - as opposed to resistances - do not merely hinder a way an effected build works, they stop it from working completely. Leech immunity is not a challenge for a leech-based build, it's a reroll. Curse immunity is not a challenge for a curse-based build, it's a reroll. Stun immunity. Blood Magic. Etc.

When the system forces rerolls, the result is that the player loses Chaos, and the map affix pool functionally shrinks for that player. An affix which can't be ran might as well read "Pay currency to access this item."

Unless one just avoids the handful of effected mechanics as much as possible. Or, you know, just sells the map.

The Economy may be the mother of Path of Exile, but Big Pappa has always been, and will always be, RNGesus. They are the yin and yang of Wraeclast, opposing each other as they work together, complimenting each other perfectly as well as the devs can manage.

And although the Son of the One True Odds gets a lot of hate around here, contrary to GGG statements otherwise, He is the most important element of Path of Exile.

Randomness, through variable monster and loot generation, is what makes each playthrough feel different. Randomness, through monster affixes, is what gives baseline easy content a scare factor, because deadly synergies could, but rarely, align. Randomness, through the map affix system, is what makes maps playable, recycling content by adding a diverse set of challenges to reach map.

Sacrificing affix variety, to achieve some economic end, is putting the cart before the horse.

Just to pick a current immunity at random... Whatever the anti-curse affix is, it should be something which is:
1. Difficult enough for a well-built curse build to consider rerolling, because it's scary
2. Possible enough for a well-built curse build to consider not rerolling, because hey, 1 Chaos Orb

Will maps become less of a Chaos sink as a result?

Maybe not by a whole lot. But, um, yes. Yes they would.

But fuck it.

"

ScrotieMcB a écrit :

Spoiler

"

Ashen_Shugar_IV a écrit :

It's an all-or-nothing premise. Either put in immunities for fucking everything, or don't have any at all

We can simplify that to "don't have any" immunities "at all."

I don't have a problem with maps being a Chaos sink. Really, I don't. But when it is treated primarily as a Chaos sink, and its purpose becomes purely economical and 0% gameplay, that is bullshit.

Immunities - as opposed to resistances - do not merely hinder a way an effected build works, they stop it from working completely. Leech immunity is not a challenge for a leech-based build, it's a reroll. Curse immunity is not a challenge for a curse-based build, it's a reroll. Stun immunity. Blood Magic. Etc.

When the system forces rerolls, the result is that the player loses Chaos, and the map affix pool functionally shrinks for that player. An affix which can't be ran might as well read "Pay currency to access this item."

Unless one just avoids the handful of effected mechanics as much as possible. Or, you know, just sells the map.

The Economy may be the mother of Path of Exile, but Big Pappa has always been, and will always be, RNGesus. They are the yin and yang of Wraeclast, opposing each other as they work together, complimenting each other perfectly as well as the devs can manage.

And although the Son of the One True Odds gets a lot of hate around here, contrary to GGG statements otherwise, He is the most important element of Path of Exile.

Randomness, through variable monster and loot generation, is what makes each playthrough feel different. Randomness, through monster affixes, is what gives baseline easy content a scare factor, because deadly synergies could, but rarely, align. Randomness, through the map affix system, is what makes maps playable, recycling content by adding a diverse set of challenges to reach map.

Sacrificing affix variety, to achieve some economic end, is putting the cart before the horse.

Just to pick a current immunity at random... Whatever the anti-curse affix is, it should be something which is:
1. Difficult enough for a well-built curse build to consider rerolling, because it's scary
2. Possible enough for a well-built curse build to consider not rerolling, because hey, 1 Chaos Orb

Will maps become less of a Chaos sink as a result?

Maybe not by a whole lot. But, um, yes. Yes they would.

But fuck it.

You once asked wtf economy-centric design was once when I'd stated I had no issues with trading and economy but rather economy-centric design, then went on to example such design and the problems with it in another thread immediately after.

You just did it again.

Thanks.

Perhaps over two years I've changed just a little bit. Not too much. Point is, if changing one's mind makes one a hypocrite, then not being a hypocrite means never improving.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

Perhaps over two years I've changed just a little bit. Not too much. Point is, if changing one's mind makes one a hypocrite, then not being a hypocrite means never improving.

Spoiler

I still believe the term "balancing for the economy" is usually a misnomer, when the more appropriate terminology would be tuning for the economy. I also believe you can contain an (admittedly much, much smaller) economy within a single account, using the stash.

You went there :O


But seriously, it's things like what you mentioned with maps that really boil my piss about PoE and they stand out so much to me. Designing first and foremost for the economy at the cost of anything else.

The original Chisel recipe was a prime example (Stone Hammers only), it was so bad that it was changed to all 3 hammer bases later of course. I've said before, if there had been an army of bots ready to kill A2N monkeys 24/7/52 it would have been a success and not changed. Luck had it, it was so bad that even the bots turned their noses up.