you nerfed the piss out of mana regen

"

zzang a écrit :

why people answering and quoting me without even reading or in worse case ignoring my posts/points i dont get it?
-----
Oh and in b4 someone says "but u has moar max mana on tree naow"

(8% max mana node give me 6 more manareg /s while a 20% mana node give me 20 mana/s)

I guess you're talking about this right? But that comparison is faulty and cannot be used unless given proper context including use of clarity, gear and chosen build path. That scenario is unique to you. Whether it is best to pick mana or regen nodes depends on two things:

1) How easy it is to get more of either
2) How much you already have (including gear)

Number 1 is typically more important with tree layout being what it is. But not always, it depends.

Consider this case for showing the importance of number 2:

You have 1000 base mana (the amount doesn't matter unless we bring clarity into it) and 400% regen total (gear and tree) and no mana%. Your mana regen then becomes 1.75%*5 = 8.7% => 1000*8.75% = 87.5 mana/sec

You now have the choice of 20% more mana or 20% more regen. What do you choose?

Mana regen: 1000*(1.75%*5.2) = 91 => 91 - 87.5 = 3.5
Mana: 1000*1.2*(1.75%*5) = 105 => 105 - 87.5 = 17.5

As you can see choosing mana here will give much better results. The opposite will happen if we reverse the numbers. So when making a judgement over which is better you have to consider your current situation just as much as your future one. When actually planning the build this means seeing which one you will get the most of with gear included, and try to get more of the one you get least of.

It is usually much easier to get mana regen from gear than mana% which is why it is better to go for extra mana in the tree. It makes the regen you do get more powerful while also increasing your available mana pool. If we exclude clarity getting the same amount of both would be best (for scaling mana regen). If clarity is included that means regen gets slightly better (if I were to guess this is probably the most significant reason for your particular result). But this means less and less the higher your mana pool gets.

"

Zoroch a écrit :

I guess you're talking about this right? But that comparison is faulty and cannot be used unless given proper context including use of clarity, gear and chosen build path.

no its basically my previous posts which got perfectly ignored to all people responded to me

where i said i use clairity EB and have 3 k mana with 290% mana reg
where i also said any more max mana isnt going to cut it as mana reg% just scales way better from a mana pool of 3k but i repeat myself...

"

Zoroch a écrit :

You now have the choice of 20% more mana or 20% more regen. What do you choose?

Mana regen: 1000*(1.75%*5.2) = 91 => 91 - 87.5 = 3.5
Mana: 1000*1.2*(1.75%*5) = 105 => 105 - 87.5 = 17.5

not really a realistic choice if you try to compare nodes to make it equal and objective one have to take 8% max mana thats what usually is offered for 1 point compared to 20% mana reg

now use the forumlar with 2.7k mana and compare it if you rather want 20% mana reg or 8% passive
or if taking the big node 40% mana reg vs 16% max mana

its obvious as i have just tested it ingame on my build with follwowing results:

8% max mana is providing roughly 120 mana which translates to 6 mana reg / second

20% mana reg translates into 16 mana reg/s

so one 20% mana reg node is almost tripple as efficient than a crappy 8% max mana but thats what im saying all the time and again im repeating myselg

"

Zoroch a écrit :

As you can see choosing mana here will give much better results. The opposite will happen if we reverse the numbers.

you are pretty good at twisting facts here thats all.

"

Zoroch a écrit :

It is usually much easier to get mana regen from gear than mana% which is why it is better to go for extra mana in the tree.

okay after this i got the feeling that you dont have too much clue about what you talking

but trying to go for ele dmg accuracy life resist AND mana reg on jewellery goes into mirror range while in the current tree there are some easily reachable 40% and 20% nodes

"

Zoroch a écrit :

It makes the regen you do get more powerful while also increasing your available mana pool. If we exclude clarity getting the same amount of both would be best (for scaling mana regen). If clarity is included that means regen gets slightly better (if I were to guess this is probably the most significant reason for your particular result). But this means less and less the higher your mana pool gets.

of course clarity "change" the result i mentioned it in my first post that i use clairity who the hell use not claritiy when running artic amrour with buff effects on lvl 23+

i recommend to try out a Artic armour build yourself before coming here and twisting around some fallacies.

Edit: as a fazit it can be said that the new patch regarding mana reg will become even more gear dependand and beginner unfriendly than it was before in case they doesnt cut some mana costly spells by half in their mana usage.

"

Mana drain of artic armour lvl 25 = 278.2 multiplieder by additional 24% increased buff effect = 278.2 * 1.24 = 344.96 mana reg required to run AA seriously

using AA on this high lvl but only having 250 mana reg is just big times fail no matter if you use lightning wrap or not (which sounds to be a awful gameplay).

First... the char does not even have Inner Force, since it is at a stupid location for it to reach. Second the build could easily get 60% increased Mana-Reg from the Witch-Start and since the 20% from one of the Shadow-Nodes isn't calculated this would push him not only to a bit above 300 Mana-Reg but actually closer to 330. That would be almost enough to sustain a lvl24 Arctic Armor with Inner Force. And thats for a build with a lot of room open for Mana-Reg on gear and Flat Mana/ES since the items are less than optimal in some cases.

"

but trying to go for ele dmg accuracy life resist AND mana reg on jewellery goes into mirror range while in the current tree there are some easily reachable 40% and 20% nodes

So basically mana-reg got nerfed for people who find it important enough to complain about, but not important enough to priorize it on their items.

"

zzang a écrit :

Mana drain of artic armour lvl 25 = 278.2 multiplieder by additional 24% increased buff effect = 278.2 * 1.24 = 344.96 mana reg required to run AA seriously

Yeah what he said - and what I've been saying but I jumped to the bottom line without all the fuzzy math :)

Some people are talking about how they have no problems casting EK. Yeah. Great. To them I say go make a build where you can sustain Incinerate with really high cast rate + over-max AA. The only way to sustain it is with a 350 - 450 mana points/second (which you achieve through both high regen %/EB of around 300 - 400 ES/mana inc %/etc.). And the only way to achieve that is with both what the tree allows for and your gear. You can't do it with just one or the other (unless like some have said you take every available mana point on the existing tree and run around with no life or defenses).

So as difficult as it is with the existing tree, it must be impossible with the new tree, unless we speculate that they cut Incin + AA requirements in 1/2 to match. If so, prefect! Great! No problems.

If not, it just kills that build.

Incinerate is not only a cool spell, but it is one that does not make your character look like you are doing jump rope over your own staff 10x/second or spazzing out from a seizure waving your arms up and down 10 times/second trying to cast shit - like almost every god damn spell in the game. It actually makes you look like a spell caster and it is powerful and viable (or was?).

If the build is dead then I guess it's back to my dum dee dumb whack whack everything dead melee ES Shadow running around with like 14K ES watching Atziri just lay down and die at just the sight of me.

I'll be sure to update the thread if that's really the case of if all my bitching was for nothing and the build still works.

"

Charan a écrit :

LOL.

Man, it's like watching people trying to figure out the plot to a story with only half the pages.

Even if I didn't know what I know, I'd know better than to knee-jerk about Skilldrasil changes when the devs have made it clear that's not the only change incoming. I might even apply some logic and figure that if they HAVE reduced mana regen that much, that might just be because people won't need it...

Or no, we could all be irrational and just decide that suddenly GGG have no idea what they're doing!

More uninformed opinions by Charan! Do you ever get tired of spreading ignorance on these forums? You have ZERO end game experience and so your valid contributions to issues of balance are also ZERO.

"

Some people are talking about how they have no problems casting EK. Yeah. Great. To them I say go make a build where you can sustain Incinerate with really high cast rate + over-max AA. The only way to sustain it is with a 350 - 450 mana points/second (which you achieve through both high regen %/EB of around 300 - 400 ES/mana inc %/etc.). And the only way to achieve that is with both what the tree allows for and your gear. You can't do it with just one or the other (unless like some have said you take every available mana point on the existing tree and run around with no life or defenses).

Arctic Armor is about 50 Mana/s at the highest levels. Incinerate with doubled Cast-Speed would be about 8 Casts per second (not counting Spell-Echo since you only pay once for two casts), it is easy to get higher, but at this rate Faster Casting might not be the most effective support anymore.

So the supports LMP, Spell-Echo, Faster Casting, Empower, Projectile Speed is only 283 Mana/s, so you need 340 Mana/s which can even be reached with the new tree, although you only need 270 Mana/Reg there, since Incenerates Mana-Cost drops by 2 and LMP gets cheaper, so it is most likely a huge buff, since this value is fairly easy to reach.

Also Added Fire, Spell-Echo, Faster Casting, Faster Projectiles, Empower EK isn't that cheap either, not to mention Increased Area, Empower, Spell-Echo, LMP, Faster Casting Fireballs.


Due to the decrease in Mana-Costs of a lot of supports and also the Skills, Managing Mana is far easier. But the main culprit is are two things:

1. People complaining and not even checking their stats, just making a build in poebuilder doesn't mean it's all set. A lot of the nodes are/were still broken, there was a node giving 91% increased attack-speed with bows, that is obviously wrong, but also a lot of mana-nodes did not work correctly.

2. People seemingly ignorant that using a 6l purposely involves a huge mana-investment because those are damn powerful spells/attacks. They are obviously meant to be expensive. So if people prefer some Ele-Damage or Resistance over Mana-Reg they shouldn't complain that they don't have enough Mana-Reg. This also includes people complaining about not having enough Mana-Reg nodes but often completly ignoring the nodes that reduce the skill-costs.


Also if they make lvls above 20 of AA harder to sustain it might be on purpose. It is a terribly strong skill.

"

Charan a écrit :

LOL.

Man, it's like watching people trying to figure out the plot to a story with only half the pages.

Even if I didn't know what I know, I'd know better than to knee-jerk about Skilldrasil changes when the devs have made it clear that's not the only change incoming. I might even apply some logic and figure that if they HAVE reduced mana regen that much, that might just be because people won't need it...

Or no, we could all be irrational and just decide that suddenly GGG have no idea what they're doing!

While I agree with the sentiment, I look at the leech changes, and wonder what the hell they were thinking. Mana Leech changes in particular. To take a build that could survive on 2-4% mana leech, and make it completely unsustainable at 4% due to the mana leech changes was pretty awful.

My hope, is that with the mana reduction changes, I might be able to make it work again.
But then, thanks to ele buzzsaw, ST got hit again. So it will depend on the nerf to ST if the build is even sustainable anymore.

"

the new tree shows only 80% mana reg from tree no idea where you got 180% from you seem to have another "new tree" than me

This has been mentioned several times already by someone. If you are using POE Builder (https://poebuilder.com/), it seems like it doesn't calculate all the mana regen nodes.
At least it does not for me when I was picking up mana regen nodes. For example try picking up the Quick Recovery node, it does nothing, even if it should give mana regen.

"

Fluffy_Puppies a écrit :

"

Charan a écrit :

LOL.

Man, it's like watching people trying to figure out the plot to a story with only half the pages.

Even if I didn't know what I know, I'd know better than to knee-jerk about Skilldrasil changes when the devs have made it clear that's not the only change incoming. I might even apply some logic and figure that if they HAVE reduced mana regen that much, that might just be because people won't need it...

Or no, we could all be irrational and just decide that suddenly GGG have no idea what they're doing!

More uninformed opinions by Charan! Do you ever get tired of spreading ignorance on these forums? You have ZERO end game experience and so your valid contributions to issues of balance are also ZERO.

Not sure if troll or... Anyhow, we'll just have to hope it's been reworked both ways.

As promised - an update to my build not that 1.2 is out and I respeced.

Well holy shit it turns out that while mana regen did indeed get nerfed, somehow my witch build remained intact. I lost a little over 140 mana/sec and ended up around 260 - 300 depending on 1 or 2 points in the tree that I go - but either one was enough to sustain Incin and my high AA as I was running around. I ended up with a minor boost in life, and a good icnrease to my incin dps/cast speed. I lost around 2% armor (I have no idea why but I went down from 39% to 37% - maybe determination got nerfed or something changed somewhere?) but that's not anything crazy to cry about.

Soooo... SORRY GGG (if you looked at this thread at all or cared)! False Alarm! I'll throw more $$ at you now.

I guess if anything, my build somehow survived, but for anyone else that was struggling with regen - you might still be screwed. I think because I had redic regen to begin with is why I still managed to hold on to my build mana req.