Either armour suck or ES is far to strong

Struggling to make a build with tankiness of the ES, ES is cheated as f, you put ES and some % and done. Armour you need health armour and elemental to armour + you try to divide damage source for armour to be less bad. This need to change its far to expensive to make an armour build tanky (even more in early late game).

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Tenebros#6275 a écrit :

Struggling to make a build with tankiness of the ES, ES is cheated as f, you put ES and some % and done. Armour you need health armour and elemental to armour + you try to divide damage source for armour to be less bad. This need to change its far to expensive to make an armour build tanky (even more in early late game).

Stick to the plan a. ES is the only defence for surviving unless you play spesific ascendary. The problem with Armour is not the lowered effectiveness but the HP options that in most cases doesn't provide enough amount to exceed 2,5k points unless you sacrifice a lot of other defensive or offensive elements. For me chars with less than 4k Life in Endgame are unacceptable.

Talking flat amounts doesn't really mean much without context and other defensive considerations.

I don't think the problem is as much "life vs es" as it is CI vs almost every other archetypes's accessibility to chaos mitigation because what CI does is immediately relieve suffix pressure for chaos resistance in return for requiring heightened passive point pressure in regards to stun/ailment threshold and increased ES/recharge/recharge start on top of ES prefixes, while the tree in this game isn't really providing the same level of power to other non-CI characters.

Even if you go hybrid CI, hybrid non-CI based will always have chaos resistance suffix pressure in the mix along with any attributes and of course resistances - not to mention things like bleed/poison duration, which CI also conveniently ignores.

Chaos damage is extremely prevalent in this game, so the imbalance to accessibility to chaos mitigation is resulting in an over representation of CI characters at high levels and I find that this over representation is frequently held up or pulled into a life vs es debate inappropriately.

Outside of this CI issue, the only meaningful thing ES does better than life is let skilled players who are quite good at not getting hit in the first place, survive errant high burst-damage mistakes. This is because accessibility to high hp values is greater with ES than it is life and the tradeoff is that ES will take double damage from chaos and has recovery/ailment constraints. All of those tradeoffs are only realized when you get hit/stand in the fire - things skilled players are great at avoiding.

So that's the edge: Skilled players are likelier to see greater utility from ES than life.

If you remove that edge, life will always be better because it has easier access to recovery and almost every other defensive consideration - but only outside of CI.

So it's a hard thing to balance.

What I see happen most often when someone says "Armour sucks and ES is better" is that it has more to do with scenarios where someone notices that they weren't immediately deleted by a slam on their ES character like they were with their armour character and just act like because of that one moment, that es holds an edge over armour. But they don't mention anything about map mods, resistances, actual armour value, recovery, additional mitigation, or avoidance layers, or playstyle, etc.

I do think that ES has an edge over being primarily life-based, and that CI might be a bit too good, but I don't that it's related to a lot of the reasons that people bring up here - which mostly points towards not knowing how to build tanky characters at all, let alone if they are life or es based, and I think most people would benefit more from learning how to be tanky before abandoning life-based characters for es-based ones.

No, ES isn't too strong. Armor just sucks.

Playing as a lich with Atziri's Disdain, I can just straight up remove 27% of all damage I take since it goes to life which can't be affected while I have ES. Zekoa's slam in a 6mod map is about 8k damage before the 27% mitigation. The amount of armor you would need for him not to smush you with 2k+ life measures in the hundreds of thousands. All you need is 8k+ ES to eat the slam. 8k ES is on the pricey side, but is a hell of a lot more achievable than armor is.

The solution here isn't to make ES suck, but to make armor a more feasible defense option.

trying full armor on my witch hunter for something different. its okay. not awesome. would die a lot without any ES.

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karsey#2995 a écrit :

which mostly points towards not knowing how to build tanky characters at all, let alone if they are life or es based, and I think most people would benefit more from learning how to be tanky before abandoning life-based characters for es-based ones.

Yup this.


Every instance I have seen on the forum actually involves ES characters getting one shot.


We have people with 12k whining about this. Ive posted this recentely I will link it here:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3902311/page/2#p26557253

These are multiple threads of people with 12K+ energy shield, not understanding anything about defense.

They just see big health number and think they are tanky.

Much like the noob trap Koams+Veil people. Which are DPS items.



Meanwhile with 130k armour (not any investment what so ever), I survive the mods they cant. I stand in the zakoas, the geonors, the auralians, the simus, the lightning doryani mobs etc...

When I went into the 220k+ armour region, it was just unnecessary and laughable.

Even my hybrid that has 30k armour and 9.8k ES, stands in these attacks with these mods.


I even actively swapped off an ES helm with the ES node which is giving up about 3k energy shield. So I could get an armour helm with the new node granting ES for armour. Doubling my armour in the process.

Made a disgusting difference.


Hyrbrid armour/ES and pure armour are in crazy spots right now. People just load their tree up with damage and 2k life and go "armour sucks"

Care to show a tree that you claim has invested into armour?

I see this a lot and then people show builds with nothing but damage nodes for example when ES needs about 20 levels investment

I just used iron reflexes (merc tree) and converted evade into armor

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karsey#2995 a écrit :

I don't think the problem is as much "life vs es" as it is CI vs almost every other archetypes's accessibility to chaos mitigation because what CI does is immediately relieve suffix pressure for chaos resistance in return for requiring heightened passive point pressure in regards to stun/ailment threshold and increased ES/recharge/recharge start on top of ES prefixes, while the tree in this game isn't really providing the same level of power to other non-CI characters.

Even if you go hybrid CI, hybrid non-CI based will always have chaos resistance suffix pressure in the mix along with any attributes and of course resistances - not to mention things like bleed/poison duration, which CI also conveniently ignores.

Chaos damage is extremely prevalent in this game, so the imbalance to accessibility to chaos mitigation is resulting in an over representation of CI characters at high levels and I find that this over representation is frequently held up or pulled into a life vs es debate inappropriately.

First time I see someone mention this and it's absolutely true. I've played two builds this season and both started as life+evasion+es and ended up evasion+CI. Even if u end up with the same EHP, CI is miles ahead of hybrid because of the mentioned suffix pressure. As CI, I can easily get rarity or even deflection instead. On top of that I'm immune to poison and bleed aswell, it's just so much more convenient. (especially true for those awful spymaster rooms, where HH just loves to teleport u into the poison pools)
Btw. as hybrid not only do u need to get enough chaos res, but u still take double chaos damage for the ES portion of ur HP.

I think CI shouldn't give immunity to Chaos damage anymore and instead remove the double damage to ES. Immunity to bleed is a must, but poison is not needed. (poison doesn't pierce ES like bleed does iirc)
That would even out at least the suffix pressure and still give CI a nice bonus over hybrid.

My titan with 5k health, 90% armour with 90% armour also applied to elemental damage with shield roll 8% additional physical damage reduction gets 1 shot too lol.

But i will still choose this over 12k es.