Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

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saturninecult#7044 a écrit :

I was saying it already at 0.1, that we seriously need some kind of juicing mechanic to choose whether we get 100 easy monsters on screen, or 10 hard ones. Obviously you could do something in between too.

Then just balance the loot so in the end both gets you same amount of stuff, to allow people to choose their playstyle. Also nerf AOE skills and buff single target (or, "less aoe") skills to get some sort of balance for different flavors of gameplay.

This way you can zoom 30 maps per hour, or do 5 slower ones, whichever your build is good at.

This

I've put an edit in the original post to clarify the meaning of "zoom", to describe clearing monsters, and not to mean mobility and attack speed.

I'm just reading over some of the posts now and finding a lot of great inputs and ideas. They're interesting to read. So thank you for your thoughts.

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saturninecult#7044 a écrit :

I was saying it already at 0.1, that we seriously need some kind of juicing mechanic to choose whether we get 100 easy monsters on screen, or 10 hard ones. Obviously you could do something in between too.

Then just balance the loot so in the end both gets you same amount of stuff, to allow people to choose their playstyle. Also nerf AOE skills and buff single target (or, "less aoe") skills to get some sort of balance for different flavors of gameplay.

This way you can zoom 30 maps per hour, or do 5 slower ones, whichever your build is good at.

That's an interesting idea. Would have to give that some thought, but it sounds like a cool concept.

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

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Nobody who disagrees with my initial post has answered the questions posed there yet. And it's not a mystery why. The question is not ill posed, or disingenuous. It's a question of whether loot is a major influencing factor.

It is not answerable, because loot is a major influencing factor, and zoom produces the most loot.

Questions:

"

If you could play an incredibly fast one-click zoom build that cleared monsters from a screen away, but in order to play this build you had to take the ascendancy node "-95% item quantity" would you play it?

Conversely, if there was a build which cleared 25% as fast, but had access to the ascendancy node "+1000% item quantity" would you play it?

I wouldn't play a game with such shitty balancing of stuff.
Work on your examples, so it's more relatable.

I'll do my best. In return I ask that you do your best to tag me if you want a response.

Answering the question, once again, was avoided.
The point of the question is not to offer a proposition for good balance.
Nor is it an attempt to be 'relatable' in the sense that we could ever reasonably expect being added to the game. no.

It's a question designed to make you ask yourself: Am I truly playing a build because it's more fun, or is it because that build is optimized to deal with the incentive structure that the game creates. Which is more loot faster.

The examples are fine, and your frustrated non-answer is expected.

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WhisperSlade#0532 a écrit :

EDIT:
It's become clear to me that when discussing 'zoom', a lot of equivocations emerge, and people have different interpretations of what that means. For the purposes of this thread, "zoom" refers only to the way the player instantly kills screens of enemies. It does not apply to movement speed, or attack speed. Mobility and 'fast paced combat' are more than fine, they make the game better and offer another aspect of build diversity. I am only talking about the high damage between players and monsters. In my mind, I thought that was clear by how I described "one-click screen clears", but now I see that it wasn't and that's my fault.
End of EDIT:

People claim to want AoE zoom farm because it's fun, and they point to the popularity of zoom builds as their evidence.

I submit, that players gravitate toward these builds not because they are ideal game design, but because without them, they feel they would not progress as fast as others.

But if you were to give the player base the unlimited option of clicking a button in their inventory labeled "generate divine orb", almost everyone would use it; even though at the same time, they would recognize this button as bad for the game. Build usage is not a good argument for good game design.

For those who disagree, answer this question:

If you could play an incredibly fast one-click zoom build that cleared monsters from a screen away, but in order to play this build you had to take the ascendancy node "-95% item quantity" would you play it?

Conversely, if there was a build which cleared 25% as fast, but had access to the ascendancy node "+1000% item quantity" would you play it?

So much for the enjoyability of zoom. These builds are played for the farming advantage relative to other players, more so than for any intrinsic element of fun.

my personal opinion is that aoe zoom is very important.

not only aoe zoom is important, but being able to one-shot, two-shot or three-shot a boss is also very important.

the best way to play this game is to kill all the enemies before they kill you.

there is nothing worse than being surrounded by 10++ mobs and getting hit repeatedly by them until you die.

there is nothing worse than a shade walker suddenly appears in front of you and then you are dead before you know it.

you also need to kill the boss within a few seconds because the longer the fight drags on, the chances of getting killed by the slams / red attacks / unevadeable skills will get higher and higher.

one button clear everything on screen is a necessary evil. one-shot knockout is also a necessary evil.

kill everything before they kill you is the way to go.

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stkmro#2432 a écrit :

my personal opinion is that aoe zoom is very important.

not only aoe zoom is important, but being able to one-shot, two-shot or three-shot a boss is also very important.

the best way to play this game is to kill all the enemies before they kill you.

In the current state of the game, I agree. We're talking about changing it, so that it's not so important.

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stkmro#2432 a écrit :

there is nothing worse than being surrounded by 10++ mobs and getting hit repeatedly by them until you die.

What if enemies usually only appeared in smaller numbers, like 4 or 5, and their attacks were much weaker? And when monsters appeared in larger packs, then those monsters would still be easily killable?

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stkmro#2432 a écrit :

you also need to kill the boss within a few seconds because the longer the fight drags on, the chances of getting killed by the slams / red attacks / unevadeable skills will get higher and higher.

skill issue. =)
But joking aside, if the only answer to dealing with bosses is to kill them before they can get off their attacks, maybe that's an issue with the attacks, and not a praise-worthy aspect of being able to delete them so quickly.

What if the slams did not one-shot you (so often)?

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stkmro#2432 a écrit :

one button clear everything on screen is a necessary evil. one-shot knockout is also a necessary evil.

kill everything before they kill you is the way to go.

I agree. Which is why we're talking about it, and why hopefully it can eventually be made unnecessary.

The mere mention of "necessary" implies an issue with the design, if that's your advocation for the bland combat.

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WhisperSlade#0532 a écrit :

Answering the question, once again, was avoided.

Here's my honest answer:
I would try to make my own build around ability and Class i personally like, I always do that first, so Chonk for the 4rth time incoming.
When I fill in Atlas, and my build is completed with all the items and stuff, I move on to another character that's gonna be yet another experiment of something new, whether it is a defensive layer i never tried, or an ability I never used - I try something new. And on that character i usually try to use all the meta shit there is like Atalui strat atm etc.
+1000% Item quantity, but 25% speed -> If that's an item mod, I would incorporate it at some point and try to make some weird Queen of the Forest speed limit avoidance shenanigans around it. If I failed, 25% speed would disencourage me after a day or two and I would be back on my regular track.
If that's ascendancy node - it's purely dependent on whether I like the Ascendancy or not.

-95% item quantity and zoom zoom speed -> I would definitely try it as second, maybe third character, just to feel the speed for fun. Few days max.

Btw I don't disagree with you.

But I see it a bit differently.
Rootcause of all evil is Infinite player sustain.
That made GGG to implement Bosses and everything basically, to One-Shot people, as a risk for player's to fail, as with Infinite sustain nothing else is a risk.
Then Players getting one-shoted, despite building tanky, figured that going full speed zoom is the way, because it reduces one-shot happening to minimum.
GGG responded with more HP for Bosses xd.
It is a hard subject to balance at this point, because there's plenty of infinite player sustain methods, that seem to be in the core of the game systems.

Thanks for the answer. It's interesting and I'll go over it, but I just want to clarify something important first, which I'm beginning to notice as a reoccurring theme in the 'zoom' discussions, which is not your fault:

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

+1000% Item quantity, but 25% speed -> If that's an item mod, I would incorporate it at some point and try to make some weird Queen of the Forest speed limit avoidance shenanigans around it. If I failed, 25% speed would disencourage me after a day or two and I would be back on my regular track.

I want to be clear that when I said "build which cleared 25% as fast"
I am not in any way, talking about mobility/movement speed, or attack speed. I am talking only, about the speed which it can kill monsters.

So for example, such a build could move quickly around the map, weave in and out of situations, and do 3-4 attacks per second (or more, etc). But when you encounter monsters, instead of pressing one or two buttons to make 30 monsters evaporate, instead you have to attack them a few times, whittle them down, (and to complete the image) their damage against you is reduced, so you are never going to be one-shot. You will die eventually to many hits however, which relates to the subject of player sustain/regen, which is coming up.

So I just wanted to clarify that, in case you were imagining a lumbering slow character who took 3 seconds to wind up an attack. That's not what I mean at all.
All the same, I appreciate the answer.

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

Here's my honest answer:
I would try to make my own build around ability and Class i personally like, I always do that first, so Chonk for the 4rth time incoming.
When I fill in Atlas, and my build is completed with all the items and stuff, I move on to another character that's gonna be yet another experiment of something new, whether it is a defensive layer i never tried, or an ability I never used - I try something new. And on that character i usually try to use all the meta shit there is like Atalui strat atm etc.

This is totally fine, good, normal, and sounds like a fun time. Character progression, feeling strong, trying metas, and experimentation are all great aspects of the game and not in question here. We wouldn't want to change those broad aspects, limit diversity, or the pursuit of a strong character. Really, we're talking about what "meta" and "strong" mean, in relation to the monsters and the average build and experience we have.

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

+1000% Item quantity, but 25% speed -> If that's an item mod, I would incorporate it at some point and try to make some weird Queen of the Forest speed limit avoidance shenanigans around it. If I failed, 25% speed would disencourage me after a day or two and I would be back on my regular track.
If that's ascendancy node - it's purely dependent on whether I like the Ascendancy or not.

Talked about this above, but just to add one more thing.
When considering the 'thought experiment', it doesn't really do to add "well actually, it's not -25% clear speed because X and Y and then I solved it". That may be the case, but then we are just explaining away the trade-off for the purposes of considering clear speed Versus loot, which is the dichotemy we're considering.

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

-95% item quantity and zoom zoom speed -> I would definitely try it as second, maybe third character, just to feel the speed for fun. Few days max.

That's totally fine. Expected really. I also play zoom builds when I'm not just messing around and experimenting. It's completely normal for players to gravitate towards what is most effective/meta at some point because those are the 'selection pressures' if you will, for what defines a good build. So I do not criticize players for how they play the game. I take issue with the context the game design has created to incentivize that play as optimal.

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

Btw I don't disagree with you.

But I see it a bit differently.
Rootcause of all evil is Infinite player sustain.
That made GGG to implement Bosses and everything basically, to One-Shot people, as a risk for player's to fail, as with Infinite sustain nothing else is a risk.
Then Players getting one-shoted, despite building tanky, figured that going full speed zoom is the way, because it reduces one-shot happening to minimum.

I 100% agree with you, and have brought this point up numerous times myself in discussions with people. If this is your opinion, I think that we agree on a lot more than we initially thought.

Your mentioning/usage of 'zoom' in this context, is exactly how I was intending it to be used. Your critique is not so much about how quickly you move between packs, or how quickly you attack and maneuver when fighting them; but that because you are susceptible to being one-shot with a tank build anyways, you might as well "zoom", which is to say, create a build that can wipe monsters before they can kill you, to almost completely negate any defensive deficiencies in your build.

And this friend, is exactly it.

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Evergrey#7535 a écrit :

GGG responded with more HP for Bosses xd.
It is a hard subject to balance at this point, because there's plenty of infinite player sustain methods, that seem to be in the core of the game systems.

Well there is hope. I realize that there are numerous things that would have to be looked at: Energy shield, leech, regen, life on hit, and so on. But I don't think this is as large of a task as it first seems, to change those numbers. The work comes, in them having to then balance around them accordingly. Which means reducing monster damage immensely, and (I think wise, to also help with visual clutter) reducing the mob density (and appropriately increasing the loot/xp rewards, proportion to the time spent killing them, so no xp/loot is actually lost)

Thanks for your answers, they were good. Cheers.

The power fantasy of deleting screens and bosses in a few clicks turns the game into a mindless cookie-clicker casino and I don't understand the appeal of that for any significant amount of time without having what is essentially a gambling addiction.

What kind of gamers advocate for game design that enables them to circumvent gameplay?

It's people who aren't there to play the actual game! They're there for another reason, and the game is mostly in the way.

That's why this feels like discussing with a bunch of baseball players where a large number of them are also crack addicts, "how should we make baseball better?"

A lot of voices agreeing on ideas that essentially boil down to "less baseball, more crack!".

We already have poe1 if you want to go simulate a mindless click-based virtual loot casino.

Something - which is not true - that I see repeated in regards to both games is that you need to clear 3 screens away in order to not be killed.
No, you don't.

There are ways to build very tanky characters even in poe2, the problem lies in how easy (or rather difficult) it is compared to going full glass cannon.

Life scaling on the tree doesn't exist and building anything remotely survivable based solely on it requires extensive game knowledge coupled with late game items that have multiple sockets.

ES is much easier to scale, but also not very intuitive to the average player, since it's limited to one area of the tree and it will never occur to people with armour or evasion based characters that they perhaps need some layer of it on top of their health pool.

Hence we have a scenario where an average player is funnelled into building a 4-5k EHP character and thinking that they should be able to tank some hits with that. If that were the case, then anybody who knew what they were doing would be essentially immortal and the game would be even more broken than it currently is.

What we have here is a repeat of the exact same mistakes that poe1 has made.
We incentivise speed and screen clear not only via the loot structure, but also via how much easier and more intuitive it is to build low EHP, high damage characters.