Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

EDIT:
It's become clear to me that when discussing 'zoom', a lot of equivocations emerge, and people have different interpretations of what that means. For the purposes of this thread, "zoom" refers only to the way the player instantly kills screens of enemies. It does not apply to movement speed, or attack speed. Mobility and 'fast paced combat' are more than fine, they make the game better and offer another aspect of build diversity. I am only talking about the high damage between players and monsters. In my mind, I thought that was clear by how I described "one-click screen clears", but now I see that it wasn't and that's my fault.
End of EDIT:

People claim to want AoE zoom farm because it's fun, and they point to the popularity of zoom builds as their evidence.

I submit, that players gravitate toward these builds not because they are ideal game design, but because without them, they feel they would not progress as fast as others.

But if you were to give the player base the unlimited option of clicking a button in their inventory labeled "generate divine orb", almost everyone would use it; even though at the same time, they would recognize this button as bad for the game. Build usage is not a good argument for good game design.

For those who disagree, answer this question:

If you could play an incredibly fast one-click zoom build that cleared monsters from a screen away, but in order to play this build you had to take the ascendancy node "-95% item quantity" would you play it?

Conversely, if there was a build which cleared 25% as fast, but had access to the ascendancy node "+1000% item quantity" would you play it?

So much for the enjoyability of zoom. These builds are played for the farming advantage relative to other players, more so than for any intrinsic element of fun.

Players are the issue.

Not playing for fun, but making a job out of the game instead.
GGG needs to work with that.

Awwwww...

Very poor attempt.

Degrading the idea to an absurd, so you can prove your point, is very good idea.

But with this -95% and +10000% you totally messed up.

You need to learn how to do it more subtle.

You cannot go and say "if we cut your both arms will you play zoom zoom? No? See you don't want to play it"

P.S: Did you see what I just did...

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Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

Awwwww...

Very poor attempt.

Degrading the idea to an absurd, so you can prove your point, is very good idea.

But with this -95% and +10000% you totally messed up.

You need to learn how to do it more subtle.

You cannot go and say "if we cut your both arms will you play zoom zoom? No? See you don't want to play it"

P.S: Did you see what I just did...

The reductio ad absurdum is intentional, and works fine. Which is why you can't answer the questions I posed.

Your comparison of cutting off limbs is a false equivalence, because nobody is playing their zoom build to keep their arms.

It is also a self-defeating point, because the implication of your example is that you are only playing a zoom build to save your arms; not because it's fun.

And that dear friend is the point. People care about the loot first, then post-hoc rationalize that it is fun to thoughtlessly click one button.

Is that true really? Do we care about loot?

If GGG tells me tomorrow: we decided that you get 1 divine per hour. Do what you want, 1 div is what you get.

What will I do according to you?

I will start cosplaying captain America and charge with a shield?

Swinging my hammer above my head for 3 seconds like a cartoon character?

And dodging, blocking, comboing?

Please...

I will go zoom zoom again.

Everyone would.

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Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

Is that true really? Do we care about loot?

Yes, loot acquisition is a core part of the game. Glad I could help.

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Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

If GGG tells me tomorrow: we decided that you get 1 divine per hour. Do what you want, 1 div is what you get.

What will I do according to you?

If loot drops were somehow homogenized (not what I want) people would then play their preference, yes. My initial post posed a question that you can't answer, so you are instead responding with a caricature of other play preferences.

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Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

I will go zoom zoom again.

Yes you, strike me as the type who prefers not to think hard about things.

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Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

Everyone would.

Clearly not.

I dont believe it is that easy and fun is very subjectiv.

For some people the fun is to have very high DPS and see them character clear the screen in a second. Just for the satisfaction of being powerfull. I do believe some people would still play "zoom" build even without better loot.

Some people find them fun into being virtualy rich and race league start with the most effectiv build to reach that goal. They might swap later to crafting if it is the best method to reach that goal also. Because them fun, the satisfaction they find, is being rich.

Some people find fun to play very weird build even if thoose arent as effectiv. Just for the satisfaction to make a weird combination work after all.

Some people find fun in fighting monsters, not carring as much of the build or the loot but finding satisfaction in the combat, movement and interaction with the game.

This last exemple is where i place myself personaly and maybe you also if i understand correctly. That doesnt mean the others arent having fun because them fun is different. I loose interest when i can clear the whole screen on sight while some others would loose interest if they were playing like me. Because they enjoy it differently.

People who get the fun out of being rich are more the target of your post i would say. And i think it shouldnt be a problem if it's what make them enjoying them time in the game. Now you have to be extremely efficient and have a lot of time for that goal and it feel unfair for a lot of people participating in the economy.

The only concern is more the danger of RMT or gambling addiction but that exist in every online game with an economy and is not related to a gameplay style zoom or not. I believe the game industry doesnt have much solution for it since not every RMTer is botting.

Again, i'm pretty sure a lot of zoomer would give up rarity affixes for more DPS just to clear the screen 0.1 second faster. That's why i think your reasoning is incorrect in saying "It's not fun and they all do it for the loot".

Yes, absolutely incorrect.

And yes, if rarity gets removed I would swap it for MS/DPS at that very moment.

"

BlastYa#4875 a écrit :

I dont believe it is that easy and fun is very subjectiv.

For some people the fun is to have very high DPS and see them character clear the screen in a second. Just for the satisfaction of being powerfull. I do believe some people would still play "zoom" build even without better loot.

Some people find them fun into being virtualy rich and race league start with the most effectiv build to reach that goal. They might swap later to crafting if it is the best method to reach that goal also. Because them fun, the satisfaction they find, is being rich.

Some people find fun to play very weird build even if thoose arent as effectiv. Just for the satisfaction to make a weird combination work after all.

Some people find fun in fighting monsters, not carring as much of the build or the loot but finding satisfaction in the combat, movement and interaction with the game.

This last exemple is where i place myself personaly and maybe you also if i understand correctly. That doesnt mean the others arent having fun because them fun is different. I loose interest when i can clear the whole screen on sight while some others would loose interest if they were playing like me. Because they enjoy it differently.

People who get the fun out of being rich are more the target of your post i would say. And i think it shouldnt be a problem if it's what make them enjoying them time in the game. Now you have to be extremely efficient and have a lot of time for that goal and it feel unfair for a lot of people participating in the economy.

The only concern is more the danger of RMT or gambling addiction but that exist in every online game with an economy and is not related to a gameplay style zoom or not. I believe the game industry doesnt have much solution for it since not every RMTer is botting.

Again, i'm pretty sure a lot of zoomer would give up rarity affixes for more DPS just to clear the screen 0.1 second faster. That's why i think your reasoning is incorrect in saying "It's not fun and they all do it for the loot".

Yes of course, people are entitled to their own preferences and that is competely fine. It is nearly impossible to talk about the opinions of a broad group without speaking in generalities; I am not trying to imply that different people do not have different preferences for play. But what I am saying is that the player numbers do not reflect a genuine desire for play styles, and that many people play a particular build because they believe it will be an effective loot farm, because they (and reasonably) think that loot acquisition is an important part of the game, and not necessarily because the type of gameplay that entails, is their idealized form of fun.

So of course, everyone has, and is allowed their preference. So why am I even bringing up this issue? Well, the problems only arise as a reult of the monster balance in relation to the power that has been granted to the players, which allow them to trivialize the content to the point of zoom and AoE clear. That, combined with an environment of player trade economy, means that both the gameplay and rewards incentivize (or more adequately described; 'pigeonhole') players to participate in the zoom meta, regardless of how they prefer to play.

So I'm afraid we sort of have to decide between whether we want the player and monsters to be balanced to allow zooming to be the logical end-point of the meta, or not. There isn't a whole lot of room in between; sure you may not care about player economy, and you can elect to play a build which is not suited for the monster balance, and you may be able to look past the fact that if you chose one of the zoom-archetypes you could be acquiring loot much faster. But I don't think you can have both.. unless.

A potential solution: the end-game needs to be multi-faceted and supply content that different play styles excel at. Some content zoomers will be best suited, and other content where only extremely defensive and smart tactical combat will excel. Then at least the game will be more balanced in terms of loot acquisition, and the player only has to choose between whether they want to apply thinking and skill to the combat, or zoom instead.

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BlastYa#4875 a écrit :

Again, i'm pretty sure a lot of zoomer would give up rarity affixes for more DPS just to clear the screen 0.1 second faster. That's why i think your reasoning is incorrect in saying "It's not fun and they all do it for the loot".

Not the case. Which is why inc rarity gear is sought after and expensive. It's about the loot. Clear speed is just another aspect of gaining loot, which is a product of both things.

Nobody who disagrees with my initial post has answered the questions posed there yet. And it's not a mystery why. The question is not ill posed, or disingenuous. It's a question of whether loot is a major influencing factor.

It is not answerable, because loot is a major influencing factor, and zoom produces the most loot.