Balance is NOT possible - PROVE ME WRONG

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Innuendos#5095 a écrit :

you can achieve balance by making every build viable.

they dont have to be equal. that would be equality, not balance. but they all have to be passible in terms of being able to do roughly the same in terms of performance.

right now, they dont have balance at all, in these terms. and realistically, it would be fairly easy to do. they have the data.... it is ea... so they have the time to do it.

hell.. with dev commands, they could do it with 1-2 testers, within a day or two just by themselves.

just pump up those numbers to make it so every skill or combo of skills can actually complete all content in roughly the same ammount of time with roughly equivilant gear/stats/etc.

would be even easier, and faster, to let the same set of monsters hit you, with a variance of defenses @ set numbers. like say... for example, 6k ES / 1.5k life. (obviously dif numbers for the other defenses and mixes of them. but i really only play es.)

all it would take, is the data from a set baseline number of +skill level, since they are hell bent on that stat being the end all be all for damage numbers... say, lv +28 as the baseline, as it would be pretty easy for every single build, to be able to get +7 w/ a corrupted gem, or +8 flat skill level in total on gear/passives/etc. that would give them a pretty nice starting point to do it, as if you cant complete t15's at +8, that would be a pretty serious problem.

then you take the numbers of that, and -/+ nerf/buff to keep the dps numbers relatively close. (by say... 250k.... 500k... +/- or w/e number they want it to be close by)

they know this.

they just wont do it.

perfect.

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Kaiserblade42#2817 a écrit :

"

Innuendos#5095 a écrit :

you can achieve balance by making every build viable.

they dont have to be equal. that would be equality, not balance. but they all have to be passible in terms of being able to do roughly the same in terms of performance.

right now, they dont have balance at all, in these terms. and realistically, it would be fairly easy to do. they have the data.... it is ea... so they have the time to do it.

hell.. with dev commands, they could do it with 1-2 testers, within a day or two just by themselves.

just pump up those numbers to make it so every skill or combo of skills can actually complete all content in roughly the same ammount of time with roughly equivilant gear/stats/etc.

would be even easier, and faster, to let the same set of monsters hit you, with a variance of defenses @ set numbers. like say... for example, 6k ES / 1.5k life. (obviously dif numbers for the other defenses and mixes of them. but i really only play es.)

all it would take, is the data from a set baseline number of +skill level, since they are hell bent on that stat being the end all be all for damage numbers... say, lv +28 as the baseline, as it would be pretty easy for every single build, to be able to get +7 w/ a corrupted gem, or +8 flat skill level in total on gear/passives/etc. that would give them a pretty nice starting point to do it, as if you cant complete t15's at +8, that would be a pretty serious problem.

then you take the numbers of that, and -/+ nerf/buff to keep the dps numbers relatively close. (by say... 250k.... 500k... +/- or w/e number they want it to be close by)

they know this.

they just wont do it.

perfect.

Nah, GGG stick to the plan....make Dead Eyes's MS more than 170%! 300% should be fine not see them moving in front of our eyes....

Pathetic balance....

I think it's not possible because there's too wide a net of players. When you look at the posts here and on reddit, you have players saying the opposite things all the time and tons of people always agree with whatever players are saying at the time:


- game is too easy. game is too hard
- game is too fast. game is too slow
- crafting is too easy. crafting is too hard
- etc.



Also whilst I think there are skills that are better than others, like pre-stacking Lightning Rod for bosses, I think players haven't experimented enough with builds. The meta is always the builds that have been min-maxed already. Whereas there are other non-meta options, but it takes someone to actually go and smooth out the build and make it comfy to play.

I'm playing a Chronomancer for example, which is like 1% of players, but I'm fairly sure my clear rate (whilst also stacking a bunch of rarity) is faster than 90% of Deadeyes, whilst also being near immortal.

It literally just needs to be balanced. Everything you can do in the game can be simulated outside of the game by the developers, and synergies can be toned down and numbers adjusted.

Reading threads like this make me realize why dev only read the problem, not the solutions (offered by players), great discussion and all but too many don't think outside the box and too many are biased.

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xxvaderxx_ar#6346 a écrit :

Right now the difference betwin the meta builds and non meta builds is astronomical.

That is not acceptable.

this.....

Didn't read everything here, in case I repeat someone else's point.

Balance isn't possible in even League of Legends with significantly less combinations and options. It wasn't possible the day LoL was released and had very little options comparatively.

However I really like their approach. They aim for cyclical balance. Yeah, in general they want things as balanced as possible. However, since perfect isn't possible, they also try to ensure that whatever is the most popular at any given point is changing, so that each archetype will have their moment at the top for a while.

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AceNightfire#0980 a écrit :

I would be interested to know which game you are talking about. Because more complex then PoE2 with all the variables I have mentioned above? I really wonder.

Even if you take out the +10 total skill levels, this game would still have balance issues. Don't get me wrong: Their heavy focus on crafting, trading and +skill level is - in my opinion - not a good choice, but again: This game offers to many variables.

I was referencing a mod I made for Divinity OS2. BG3's more difficult cousin. Also the exact genre ARPGs came from. I actually made another mod for it which removes turns. The AI is twitchy but it's good for PvP. I did it the same way they did with Diablo 1. Made it run on tick rate.

Vanilla DOS2 is not that hard when it comes to picking a playstyle or how to approach combat for similar reasons PoE2 is not. Once you've invested some time, there's clearly good and bad skills. They recently showed that Icinerate Monk video. I'm pretty sure everyone knows Fireball is drastically better at clearing and Flame Blast just one-shots bosses.

That build was silly. Trying to pretend there's any real comparison. The best was probably Fiery Death support which takes a full 3 seconds to activate insuring it does just about nothing.

At any rate the mod adds new skills and reworks vanilla ones. Total of around 200 skills. The "morph" support gem interaction you'd see from PoE is done via talents. Most are paragraph long build defining picks that inherently change how the base skills work. The invest > payoff is done via these in addition to many conditional skill interactions.

More weapon options than PoE1 let alone PoE2. Runes check, build defining Unique items check. Flasks, probably ~70 consumables actually. Dynamically generated gear, check. Dynamically generated enemies, ie Rares check x3. Actually better than PoE because they're not blanket additions. They're based on archetypes. Bosses with mechanics, check.

I'm not sure how to explain this well but passive trees when done correctly are fake. They're only real purpose is to give the sense of progression and anything else can be dumbed down to attributes. We don't need an atlas passive tree, only the ability to influence the type of content we want to play. The Ascendancy tree actually gives you less options. Not more. It's a trick to pigeon hole and make things easier to balance. Attribute requirements are another pigeon hole trick.

Like I mentioned I did a classless system which means you build your class. No attribute requirements. Low requirements for entry and everyone can use everything. Few developers will touch a class-less system because they require a lot of patience and attention to balance. This crew working on PoE2 have no chance. From day 1 the %ES with no other stacking HP pool. They also forgot(?) why there's two terms 'reduced' and 'less' so I made a character who put bosses at 0% action speed as result. Balance might be impossible for them but not in general.

The +10 all skills thing was just an example of a nonsense point to start any on-going RPG game. It's not number bloat in this case because in the end that's just a ratio. No we simply do way too much damage. PoE1 has the same problem now with Ubers. When you have to introduce a boss with just flat DR circumventing the entire damage system. You messed up.

ARPG Devs should really take a step back and think why turn based games never died and have been making huge waves the past 5 years. Maybe, just maybe. It's not all about the loot.

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Xzorn#7046 a écrit :

ARPG Devs should really take a step back and think why turn based games never died and have been making huge waves the past 5 years. Maybe, just maybe. It's not all about the loot.

first of all. great post.

but this is probably the best quote in there, and it might not be why you think/wanted it to be for me.

i think the biggest problem for me, for alot of games lately had been the story. the representation of the story. the lack of a cohesive story that makes sense. a lack of characters with personality, memorable moments, and characters that make decisions that not only makes sense, in general and in terms of their character, but also make decisions that shape the player characters story, world, and adventure in the story.

is it all about the loot? no. and it never was. it was always about the adventure, and HOW you got there, not THAT you get there.

loot was just a mechanism to help you GET to the end of the story. it was never the whole story or even the point of the story. and it was never the main focus... even if sometimes particular loot, like say, the master sword... simon's fire whip... or mario's fire flower... would become legendary or iconic... it was always the actual story. find the princess. kill dracula. save zelda. no matter the cost. no matter how simple, that story could be, or how complicated like in bethesda games. it was always the focal point. there has to be a reason for getting the loot.

in poe1, believe it or not,.... there was a cohesive story, that made sense, and chapter by chapter, things done by characters, and the player made sense... it kept the story going.

i dont feel that in poe2. at all. can that change? maybe. there IS 2 acts left. but i do think the lack of a cohesive, making sense, character/npc decisions that shape the story... are important. and poe 2 for me doesnt really do that like it did in poe1. and i think that has a significant impact on the feeling of the campaign in terms of 'being a slog'.

in poe2 we are chasing the beast. and sure the wolf fight is memorable. and its cool we find doryani and befriend him... to try to stop the beast.. but outside of that? there really isnt much of a cohesive story. its just bad guy after bad guy, becauseeeeee they are the bad guy at that particular moment in time.

in poe 1... it takes multiple acts to kill piety. and we do it multiple times. it takes a while to find and kill dominus, the one who is responsible for making us wake up on a beach as an exile after trying to kill us, in memorable fashion. diala is in multiple acts, and we see her transform, and progress as a character. even something as simple as revisting brutus from act 1... there are alot of these things in poe1.. like this.

none of this. happens in poe2. with anyone. not even the player character.
we fight jarmanra twice... but.. its literally just becuase he is a right hand man... for the chick.. moving the beast around. thats about it. he's part of some civil war with 2 factions we dont really care about... i guess? in some way shape or form. but the character doesnt have to care about it really, they are just... just thrust into it because... we have to chase the beast so we dont die. nothing more.

wolf boi? he might be owning everyone around us and making life miserable. but we dont care about that cuz we want OUR revenge. helping everyone else is just... what happens along the way.

i guess my point is...

poe1 story was actually good and was cohesive, and poe2 really lacks in this department. its not nearly as good. it isnt remotely as good.

in poe1... to finish the campaign... you really can do it with just about any build... unlike poe2. and that was because the campaign was designed that way. the builds were balanced to be able to kill the campaign. gems and power given to you at certain break points in the story. this doesnt happen in poe2...

even ascendency's made sense with the lab. there was A STORY to why you ascended... and WHY it was where it was. in poe2. you literally... just walk up to the chaos trial.... for no reason. you just find it. balbalabalba fight? she was just the reason we went to an area.... to bypass it and her. if you were actually paying attention to the story... and the story was cohesive.. and made sense. she wouldnt be on some side quest area... she would be in the room connecting to the way out... or it would make you finish the trial of the sekhemas to get out of the traitors passage... so it would make sense to kill her. and it would make sense to do the trial..... which would be to ESCAPE the area, and get to the other side to where you wanted to go.

and no. it isnt about the loot. it never was. the loot was always a means to the end. and you never really needed good loot in poe1 until the campaign was over. in poe2... that really isnt the case. and this is where it comes full circle to the balance problem.

i care about my loot. and my gear. 10x more. than i care about the story of poe2. and that is not how it should be. and it is NOT how it was, in this games previous installment.

poe1's story was the game, and it makes sense, and in poe2... the story is just... there. really. and the gear is the game. you dont care about anything else but the loot... in poe2. and that ... is the saddest part. esp because it is SO unbalanced like it is. you care about the loot to finish the story. instead of you finishing the story, to get loot.

it definitely possible albeit difficult