The cost of death!

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

So... what is your point? We can literally prove to you that the "Path of Exile" player base is growing from year to year and from league to league, constantly.

How many ppl will play PoE2 on full release is nothing we can even guess. We had to compare a paid "Early Access" (beta) with a F2P game and we don't know how PoE2 will be on full release. Even now we only got 6 out of 12 classes, only 12 out of 36 ascendancies, only 3 out of 6 Acts, 50 out of 100 bosses, 400 out of 800 mobs, the crafting isn't where it will be, the end game is completely bare bones, half the uniques and many base items are missing and so on.
A lot of ppl are just not interested in an "Early Access" version of a game, especially not when the game on release will be free.

While most PoE veterans already "cleared/finished" PoE2 atm, if you look at new PoE players - many of them still enjoy the game. For 2 months in, that's pretty good.

My latest point is this: PoE2 has caused a serious kerfuffle for GGG's community, and I don't know if they can fix it to any great degree. PoE2's gameplay is not far enough of a departure from PoE to draw an appreciable amount of people into the community. All it will do is divide the current community into either 1 or 2, unless they stagger the leagues, in which case some may do both. But, unless they depart from the baggage, they will probably not draw new people.

Bringing it back to topic (and thank you captain), the xp penalty needs to be addressed. It's also one of the reasons why I left PoE, combined with other annoyances that just accumulated in end-game. They'd be better off having the penalty start at the beginning of the game then to wait until end-game (probably progressive, like Grim Dawn, with the chance to get your body/tombstone to get some back, like D2/GD), and have someone excited to finally make it, and BAM, welcome to new mechanics...we were waiting for you to get here. You trudged through the crappy drop rates, probably barely made it, now let's hit you with xp penalty, loss of waystone, did you forget to pick up some loot? well, too bad, no marginal loot for you. It's just not the same game you play up until that point. Oh, and don't forget to go to the crappy trade site, since that's the only way to improve your gear.

This game could actually be the king of ARPGs and set a new bar, but not the way they've been doing it so far.

And, please, for the drama queens, you don't have to turn it into D4 to make it a more fun and rewarding experience. It can be a challenging and skills-based game if they can figure out how to balance things properly. In my experience, that's just never been one of their strong suits.

"

GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

My latest point is this: PoE2 has caused a serious kerfuffle for GGG's community, and I don't know if they can fix it to any great degree. PoE2's gameplay is not far enough of a departure from PoE to draw an appreciable amount of people into the community. All it will do is divide the current community into either 1 or 2, unless they stagger the leagues, in which case some may do both. But, unless they depart from the baggage, they will probably not draw new people.

Bringing it back to topic (and thank you captain), the xp penalty needs to be addressed. It's also one of the reasons why I left PoE, combined with other annoyances that just accumulated in end-game. They'd be better off having the penalty start at the beginning of the game then to wait until end-game (probably progressive, like Grim Dawn, with the chance to get your body/tombstone to get some back, like D2/GD), and have someone excited to finally make it, and BAM, welcome to new mechanics...we were waiting for you to get here. You trudged through the crappy drop rates, probably barely made it, now let's hit you with xp penalty, loss of waystone, did you forget to pick up some loot? well, too bad, no marginal loot for you. It's just not the same game you play up until that point. Oh, and don't forget to go to the crappy trade site, since that's the only way to improve your gear.

This game could actually be the king of ARPGs and set a new bar, but not the way they've been doing it so far.

And, please, for the drama queens, you don't have to turn it into D4 to make it a more fun and rewarding experience. It can be a challenging and skills-based game if they can figure out how to balance things properly. In my experience, that's just never been one of their strong suits.

Have you listened to completely new ppl or those who tried PoE1, but don't liked the gameplay? That ppl like the different gameplay can you find all over the place. Sure, with meta builds it fades away in late-game and is not well-balanced atm, but you can choose to play a gameplay-intense and fun character.
That's not really a thing in PoE with the clunky af gameplay.

Sometimes, when I read comments like this, I think to myself - do other ppl think at all?

You think the EXP loss would be better right from the start? You mean... at a point where losing EXP literally doesn't matter and will never ever slow you down in a noticeable way and/or oppose any factor of risk? Yeah... that will show them.

Do you don't realise that we don't have an actual transition from Acts to the end game atm? It's unreal that ppl don't get that... the transition happens in Acts 4-6. That's where the game gets increasingly closer to how the end game will be. We just don't have Act 4-6 right now and got a placeholder where monsters got more health, that's it. Obviously, it plays differently when you go from "not even halfway into the campaign" to "end game" while you miss on all the introductions that would be there with a full campaign.

"

_rt_#4636 a écrit :

Genuine question: didn't D4 make USD600 million basically at launch with prices ranging between $70 and $100-ish?
Wouldn't this mean they sold anything between 60 and 85 million copies?

On June 6, 2023, Blizzard Entertainment announced that Diablo IV became the fastest-selling game in Blizzard Entertainment's history. Diablo IV generated $666 million in revenue within the first five days after launch, and reached 12 million players by August 2023.

$666 ? The Devil ? In a Diablo game ?

Lol, I don't buy it.

"

dwqrf#0717 a écrit :

"

_rt_#4636 a écrit :

Genuine question: didn't D4 make USD600 million basically at launch with prices ranging between $70 and $100-ish?
Wouldn't this mean they sold anything between 60 and 85 million copies?

On June 6, 2023, Blizzard Entertainment announced that Diablo IV became the fastest-selling game in Blizzard Entertainment's history. Diablo IV generated $666 million in revenue within the first five days after launch, and reached 12 million players by August 2023.

$666 ? The Devil ? In a Diablo game ?

Lol, I don't buy it.

Still, USD 1 billion in revenue at the end of 2Q24, with $150M being MTX, so still $850M, considering base game and expansion.

So, again, 60-85 millions copies sold, isn't it?

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

Have you listened to completely new ppl or those who tried PoE1, but don't liked the gameplay? That ppl like the different gameplay can you find all over the place. Sure, with meta builds it fades away in late-game and is not well-balanced atm, but you can choose to play a gameplay-intense and fun character.
That's not really a thing in PoE with the clunky af gameplay.

Sometimes, when I read comments like this, I think to myself - do other ppl think at all?

I don't understand how this relates to my previous comments. Maybe if you could please clarify.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

You think the EXP loss would be better right from the start? You mean... at a point where losing EXP literally doesn't matter and will never ever slow you down in a noticeable way and/or oppose any factor of risk? Yeah... that will show them.

Just to make my position clear. I don't think the xp penalty should be in this game at all. Not in the form it currently is. It's a lazy, artificial slow down method to prevent people from getting to max level. The mentality that max level should only be achievable by a small percentage needs to go, too. The devs need to get on the stick and actually design some engaging end game content that will keep people interested enough to keep playing after max level is achieved. This is what would keep people sticking around to play after the level incentive is gone.

That's also if they want people to stick around, bandwidth costs money so the current burst and deplete mechanics of leagues may actually be favorable. "Come on in, buy a supporter pack, play a month then go away and stop sucking our bandwidth."

The point I was making was a compromise. IF they want to keep it, they should introduce it much earlier in the game, so that it's not a culture shock all of a sudden in end game. That's what Grim Dawn does. When you are low level, it takes a small percentage of xp, and this percentage increases as you level. You also have a chance to retrieve (I think) 50% of that xp if you get back to your death location (gravestone). That's how D2 worked, too, but you could get 75% back. No zone/enemy reset, you can still go get something back. People around here tend to not mention that part of the mechanic when comparing this game to D2.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

Do you don't realise that we don't have an actual transition from Acts to the end game atm? It's unreal that ppl don't get that... the transition happens in Acts 4-6. That's where the game gets increasingly closer to how the end game will be. We just don't have Act 4-6 right now and got a placeholder where monsters got more health, that's it. Obviously, it plays differently when you go from "not even halfway into the campaign" to "end game" while you miss on all the introductions that would be there with a full campaign.

There was no transition in PoE regarding the changing of mechanics, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect that in this game. Those who have played GGG games (yes, I know that's redundant) expect the xp loss, so it's not new. New players, however, are obviously very turned off by it, and I am, too. In a game where you can get one-shot, regardless of build, xp loss on death should not be a thing, imho. Especially when you have no death log to tell you what killed you. The one shots also go against their supposed philosophy of "slower, methodical gameplay". One shots need to go.

Every indication so far shows that they will continue their PoE tradition of having OP, exploitative builds, purposefully built into the game. This is why I believe that they don't know how to balance their game, they've never shown that they can. Unless it's all intentional, but then you have to ask, why?

"

Just to make my position clear. I don't think the xp penalty should be in this game at all. Not in the form it currently is. It's a lazy, artificial slow down method to prevent people from getting to max level. The mentality that max level should only be achievable by a small percentage needs to go, too. The devs need to get on the stick and actually design some engaging end game content that will keep people interested enough to keep playing after max level is achieved. This is what would keep people sticking around to play after the level incentive is gone.

Imagine demanding something to get removed YOU don't understand.
It's not lazy, nore an "artificial slowing" method and especially not the prevent ppl from reaching level 100 - it's just simple.

You die - you lose exp. The end.

What would your solution to a punishment on death? A punishment that is ONLY related to the death of your character?
Because "yeah, but I lose my map yadda yadda too" is NOT exclusively a "on death" punishment. That's a result you can get otherwise too. So, how would YOU punish death?

"

Every indication so far shows that they will continue their PoE tradition of having OP, exploitative builds, purposefully built into the game. This is why I believe that they don't know how to balance their game, they've never shown that they can. Unless it's all intentional, but then you have to ask, why?

Bruh... exploits will be fixed, but that you become a "God" at some point in the game and basically can trivialise everything the game has to offer IS the power fantasy this game is made for. Always was and always will be.
That has nothing to do with their ability to balance stuff.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

Imagine demanding something to get removed YOU don't understand.
It's not lazy, nore an "artificial slowing" method and especially not the prevent ppl from reaching level 100 - it's just simple.

You die - you lose exp. The end.

What would your solution to a punishment on death? A punishment that is ONLY related to the death of your character?
Because "yeah, but I lose my map yadda yadda too" is NOT exclusively a "on death" punishment. That's a result you can get otherwise too. So, how would YOU punish death?

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

Bruh... exploits will be fixed, but that you become a "God" at some point in the game and basically can trivialise everything the game has to offer IS the power fantasy this game is made for. Always was and always will be.
That has nothing to do with their ability to balance stuff.

Your lack of objectivity and unquestioning worship of GGG is now coming through, loud and clear. I doubt any further conversation will be fruitful in any way whatsoever.

But, for anyone who may read this, I will respond one more time.

Most players will consider just dying an indicator of something. Whether it's carelessness, lack of upgraded gear, wonky build, etc. People around here seem to think that over-the-top measures need to be taken in order to convey these things, as if a gamer can't figure that out for themselves. You try content that you aren't prepared for, you die, and usually keep dying. It's that simple, really.

The arguments against the xp loss on death have been repeated over and over on these forums, so I won't rehash those. It is clear, however, that the overwhelming majority of players do not like it and find it detracts from the entertainment of the game, which is why people play games. They're supposed to be entertaining.

That's why I mentioned the "Lvl 100 is only for the 1337!!!1!1!" garbage. This mentality is where the xp death penalty ultimately comes from, which is why I say it's lazy. Because it is. There are games out there that continue to challenge a player once they've min/maxed to the max. Grim Dawn is one of them, but there are others. These are actually games of real skill, where skill alone determines how far you can go, and skillful players can actually compete with each other through ladders or some other way.

I dare say that some of the folks strutting around here acting like they are one of those players would not be proven out as actually skillful if competing in that environment. That's why these people don't want anything to change that much (along with the obvious psychological conditioning that's taken place) around here. Just keep it a knowledge/gear based game, forget about the skill. Sorry(-ish), PoE has never been a skill based game, as much as people and the devs try to portray it as such, which means PoE2 will likely follow the same mold.

That removes it from being a true "hardcore" game, too. Those are skill based. Hardcore is not: put up with crappy loot, struggle with crappy trade, and jump through all these artificial hurdles (xp loss on death) to get to max level, so you can portray yourself as "god-like" in a game. I'm actually sorry if anyone around here thinks that that is an actual accomplishment. If you're getting paid, sure, that turns into something tangible (like all the RMTs that lurk and comment around here), but otherwise it's just wasting your time for an illusory status. Ultimately, it's delusional.

But, it does turn into real money for Tencent/GGG. The house always wins. So, you all keep telling yourself that you're awesome and that you "know better" and that people that don't "know" or "understand" are the wacky ones. Whatever makes you feel better...I really don't care.

But, as for a quality game that provides actual challenge, PoE wasn't it and I hope they prove me wrong about 2, but I don't think this will be it either.

Most of what I see around here, with the toxic vets, are stockholmers with ludopathy, who don't want their casino taken away or changed too much. It's not about having an actual engaging and challenging gaming experience. And, again, Tencent/GGG banks on that continuing.

"

Your lack of objectivity and unquestioning worship of GGG is now coming through, loud and clear.

Always the same. Statements without anything to prove what you are saying.

"

It is clear, however, that the overwhelming majority of players do not like it and find it detracts from the entertainment of the game

Majority? Prove it. Where are all the players who are enough to form a majority who want it to be removed? The few ppl here in the forum? Yeah... convincing when around 2 million ppl play PoE2.

"

That's why I mentioned the "Lvl 100 is only for the 1337!!!1!1!" garbage. This mentality is where the xp death penalty ultimately comes from, which is why I say it's lazy. Because it is.

That's in fact wrong. The developer did not put the "exp penalty" into the game because they wanted some "1337 garbage". It's really not hard to understand.

IF you want to get the last part of any "power" in the game (min/maxing) you need to put A LOT into the game, and no, not time. Time is ALWAYS a factor.
Everything after a point stops being mandatory. After level 90 every level is not mandatory, after you got decent gear - an improvement is not mandatory.

It's so weird that you think getting level 100 is only a time thing when it is not. Ask PoE veterans, many of them don't level to 100 because it takes more than "just time". And if you don't believe them - go and level a character to 100 and come back to tell me "it only takes time".

"

I dare say that some of the folks strutting around here acting like they are one of those players would not be proven out as actually skillful if competing in that environment. That's why these people don't want anything to change that much (along with the obvious psychological conditioning that's taken place) around here. Just keep it a knowledge/gear based game, forget about the skill. Sorry(-ish), PoE has never been a skill based game, as much as people and the devs try to portray it as such, which means PoE2 will likely follow the same mold.

Are you able to base your statement on anything besides your own impression?

"

That removes it from being a true "hardcore" game, too. Those are skill based. Hardcore is not: put up with crappy loot, struggle with crappy trade, and jump through all these artificial hurdles (xp loss on death) to get to max level, so you can portray yourself as "god-like" in a game. I'm actually sorry if anyone around here thinks that that is an actual accomplishment. If you're getting paid, sure, that turns into something tangible (like all the RMTs that lurk and comment around here), but otherwise it's just wasting your time for an illusory status. Ultimately, it's delusional.

Are you confused about what kinds of "skill" exist or do you struggle with words in general? Nobody ever claimed that the exp loss is a "skill check" based on your mechanical skill.
Furthermore, the "God" fantasy is IN-GAME and not how ppl present themselves outside of the game when they have a "God-like" character. Has nothing to do with your "status strawman".

"

But, it does turn into real money for Tencent/GGG. The house always wins. So, you all keep telling yourself that you're awesome and that you "know better" and that people that don't "know" or "understand" are the wacky ones. Whatever makes you feel better...I really don't care.

Yes. Big brain move from GGG and Tencent to make a game not everyone wants to play because it's too punishing and has a high learning curve. That's some 4D chess stuff, right!?

"

Most of what I see around here, with the toxic vets, are stockholmers with ludopathy, who don't want their casino taken away or changed too much. It's not about having an actual engaging and challenging gaming experience. And, again, Tencent/GGG banks on that continuing.

Dude, don't project yourself onto others. The PoE community is actually really wholesome and helps new ppl so much - it's hard to find a comparison. What the community does NOT like are whining ppl who refuse everything.
Refuse to respect the game, the community, the learning curve, etc. and instead blame their "non-enjoyment" on everything besides themselves.
Yeah dude... we should welcome these toxic ppl in the community, nah, better go somewhere else.

"

_rt_#4636 a écrit :

"

dwqrf#0717 a écrit :

"

_rt_#4636 a écrit :

Genuine question: didn't D4 make USD600 million basically at launch with prices ranging between $70 and $100-ish?
Wouldn't this mean they sold anything between 60 and 85 million copies?

On June 6, 2023, Blizzard Entertainment announced that Diablo IV became the fastest-selling game in Blizzard Entertainment's history. Diablo IV generated $666 million in revenue within the first five days after launch, and reached 12 million players by August 2023.

$666 ? The Devil ? In a Diablo game ?

Lol, I don't buy it.

Still, USD 1 billion in revenue at the end of 2Q24, with $150M being MTX, so still $850M, considering base game and expansion.

So, again, 60-85 millions copies sold, isn't it?

apparently they sold 9-10mil copies. the 666 figure is sus and a lo of the revenue came from mtx, who knows how else they bumped the revenue numbers