The cost of death!

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

The 50/50 split for PoE2 with steam/GGG is not going to help your case. It will likely make it much worse.

Have you heard of consoles? Your 50/50 split, do you have a reference for that?

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

Absolutely a skewed comparison since D4 launched on battle.net at probably around 8mil units.

What you could do, though, is compare the % of current vs. peak.

PoE2 - 86,475 / 578,569 = ~15%
D4 - 9,815 / 55,561 = ~17.6%

I don't care, as I'm not playing either, and likely won't come back to PoE2. I just keep my eye out here in the way off chance that the devs actually try to make this a decent game, but PoE + this makes me think they don't actually know how to.

This is the second time here I've had to call someone out for fake news on steam stats comparing these 2 games. Last analysis I did determined that steam numbers likely account for 10%-15% of total D4 players.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3714822/page/2

Who the hell compares "peak" with "current"? You compare "peak all time" with "peak 24 hours".

That would be "578,562 all time" to "124,062 24-hour peak" and that's roughly 22% remaining after 2 months. Btw., most ppl play on the stand-alone client and not steam. That was already confirmed by Chris Wilson in the past.

From what I've found "Diablo 4" has 3,273,757 monthly active players (all platforms)
and "Path of Exile 2" has 2,028,440 monthly active players (all platforms).

While "Diablo 4" has in total more ppl playing... the game is already in full release for a while AND loses constantly players (the player base gets smaller) while "Path of Exile 2" isn't even in full release and the IP is growing constantly for years now.

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mikeab79#3627 a écrit :

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

The 50/50 split for PoE2 with steam/GGG is not going to help your case. It will likely make it much worse.

Have you heard of consoles? Your 50/50 split, do you have a reference for that?

There are no references for any of the company client numbers, they don't disclose that information. I'm guesstimating based on the available figures. We know that GGG remarked on passing 1mil at launch and being concerned about server capacity. So, 1.2mil seems a reasonable launch estimate. Almost 600k on steam, so about a 50/50 split between steam and GGG client/console. That's my reasoning.

The thing that's so disingenuous about the GGG cult here is that you all forget that D4 sold somewhere around 8mil at launch, only on battle.net and console stores. It didn't launch on steam until 4 months later, after all the hype.

Steam numbers are a very small percentage for D4, as opposed to somewhere around half for PoE2.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

Absolutely a skewed comparison since D4 launched on battle.net at probably around 8mil units.

What you could do, though, is compare the % of current vs. peak.

PoE2 - 86,475 / 578,569 = ~15%
D4 - 9,815 / 55,561 = ~17.6%

I don't care, as I'm not playing either, and likely won't come back to PoE2. I just keep my eye out here in the way off chance that the devs actually try to make this a decent game, but PoE + this makes me think they don't actually know how to.

This is the second time here I've had to call someone out for fake news on steam stats comparing these 2 games. Last analysis I did determined that steam numbers likely account for 10%-15% of total D4 players.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3714822/page/2

Who the hell compares "peak" with "current"? You compare "peak all time" with "peak 24 hours".

That would be "578,562 all time" to "124,062 24-hour peak" and that's roughly 22% remaining after 2 months. Btw., most ppl play on the stand-alone client and not steam. That was already confirmed by Chris Wilson in the past.

From what I've found "Diablo 4" has 3,273,757 monthly active players (all platforms)
and "Path of Exile 2" has 2,028,440 monthly active players (all platforms).

While "Diablo 4" has in total more ppl playing... the game is already in full release for a while AND loses constantly players (the player base gets smaller) while "Path of Exile 2" isn't even in full release and the IP is growing constantly for years now.

I just used the numbers he pulled, if you notice.

I agree with you that what you mention would be more accurate.

I disagree with the numbers you pulled, likely from Gamalytic or similar, those sites all report unrealistically high numbers and don't have access to GGG's client or battle.net numbers.

Edit: Correction - Not Gamalytic, but PlayTracker, ActivePlayer.io, GamingAnalytics.info, etc.

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

I just used the numbers he pulled, if you notice.

I agree with you that what you mention would be more accurate.

I disagree with the numbers you pulled, likely from Gamalytic or similar, those sites all report unrealistically high numbers and don't have access to GGG's client or battle.net numbers.

Still, GGG themselves said that most ppl use the stand-alone client, they have the numbers. Hell, I don't know a single person who uses the steam client. Mostly new ppl use it until they realise that the stand-alone has benefits that the steam client has not.

GeoFruck makes some good points and it's impossible to know true numbers for games across multiple formats and digital stores or launchers, but I also fail to see how turning this into a dick measuring contest between PoE2 numbers and D4 numbers is going to accomplish much. All that really matters is knowing how many people consider PoE2's death penalties to be a, say, top 3 reason to stop playing and we won't know that without GGG giving people a 2 minute survey to gauge why they stop playing.

For me in PoE1, it always ends up being a mix of the exp penalty, gear progression, and whether I have other games vying for my attention at the time. I can't remember the leagues anymore that I have in my mind right now or which one was my last (I want to say it was Ultimatum), but my single most powerful and successful build I ever did (with a couple ideas from a former MMO guild mate) got me to level like 93 or 94, and eventually I just gave up because the exp penalty was too intense for how slow the exp gain was, and it was nigh impossible to find gear that genuinely increased by damage or survivability (and mine was honestly above average at best). I've never made a blue or green side build quite seem to work (either just decisions that didn't work out or my gear always sucked), I've always preferred Marauder and Duelist, so I had the added problem of armor/life which always sucked in PoE1 compared to ES, as well. Eventually, the sense of progress just falls apart, and the sheer intense pressure the game puts on you to juice as hard as you can in the hopes of getting a proper drop only to die once or twice after hours of progress for like maybe 10-15% exp progress with literally no upgrades to show for it becomes too much to bear and I give up. My last or second to last league before giving up and just waiting for PoE2 I burned the equivalent of 800 chaos and deterministic craft currencies/league mechanics and still didn't land a single upgrade on just a chest piece of ilvl like 82 and boss enhanced for the end game chase mods. Just fuck that shit to hell, man. There's a reason I pushed nearly 500 hours into Last Epoch before its v1.0; you always feel a sense of progress on gear and levels. I just can't stomach another Lagon fight and its end game grows tedious rather quickly, so waiting out on their next big update.

PoE2 so far, as poor as its current state of end game progression feels, does seem to give me more gear. Even despite my struggles, I do occasionally land a slightly better armor or boots or accessory or something, and it is fucking stupid how little it matters with how bad life/armor is right now given ES builds could handle three to four times the damage that ends up one shotting me regardless of type. When I already have the game pressuring me to give up because end game progression becomes finding snowballs in hell, the current death penalties are kicks in the teeth after already being punched in the gut and falling down. A game shouldn't stop being fun because of its death penalties, for real.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

I just used the numbers he pulled, if you notice.

I agree with you that what you mention would be more accurate.

I disagree with the numbers you pulled, likely from Gamalytic or similar, those sites all report unrealistically high numbers and don't have access to GGG's client or battle.net numbers.

Still, GGG themselves said that most ppl use the stand-alone client, they have the numbers. Hell, I don't know a single person who uses the steam client. Mostly new ppl use it until they realise that the stand-alone has benefits that the steam client has not.

I personally don't really believe anything GGG says at this point. But, even if that's true, 51/49 could be considered as "most", or something above that.

The point still being that there is too much gray area to just be pulling steam numbers and saying "them's the facts!", which happens a lot around here in an attempt to paint PoE(2) as some kind of superstar.

The plain and simple truth of the matter is that all games have been going downhill for years now, and having to pick something from the bottom of the barrel and saying "well, this isn't as bad as the others" doesn't make it good. It's just better than the other stuff that's worse.

I was hoping for a break-out with PoE2, and it might still happen, but I doubt it. Too much baggage and lack of innovation where it counts. I honestly think that the best that the GGG diehards can hope for is a PoE clone and for them to keep you all engaged and interested. No substantial amount of new people, though, imho. We shall see.

I think a fair penalty is you lose the experience you gained on that map, and maybe the loot from that map as well. Basically resetting you to a point before you entered the map. You're penalized for failing the map, but not so egregiously that you have to grind your way back up.

Just my thought.

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GeoFruck#1167 a écrit :

I personally don't really believe anything GGG says at this point. But, even if that's true, 51/49 could be considered as "most", or something above that.

The point still being that there is too much gray area to just be pulling steam numbers and saying "them's the facts!", which happens a lot around here in an attempt to paint PoE(2) as some kind of superstar.

The plain and simple truth of the matter is that all games have been going downhill for years now, and having to pick something from the bottom of the barrel and saying "well, this isn't as bad as the others" doesn't make it good. It's just better than the other stuff that's worse.

I was hoping for a break-out with PoE2, and it might still happen, but I doubt it. Too much baggage and lack of innovation where it counts. I honestly think that the best that the GGG diehards can hope for is a PoE clone and for them to keep you all engaged and interested. No substantial amount of new people, though, imho. We shall see.

So... what is your point? We can literally prove to you that the "Path of Exile" player base is growing from year to year and from league to league, constantly.

How many ppl will play PoE2 on full release is nothing we can even guess. We had to compare a paid "Early Access" (beta) with a F2P game and we don't know how PoE2 will be on full release. Even now we only got 6 out of 12 classes, only 12 out of 36 ascendancies, only 3 out of 6 Acts, 50 out of 100 bosses, 400 out of 800 mobs, the crafting isn't where it will be, the end game is completely bare bones, half the uniques and many base items are missing and so on.
A lot of ppl are just not interested in an "Early Access" version of a game, especially not when the game on release will be free.

While most PoE veterans already "cleared/finished" PoE2 atm, if you look at new PoE players - many of them still enjoy the game. For 2 months in, that's pretty good.

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Lightbrazer#4671 a écrit :

Personally I think dying should kick you back to your hideout without losing exp. The player then gets to make a choice. They can either lose 10% exp to use one of their portals and re-enter the map. OR they can load a new waystone into the map node and lose all the prior modifiers on the tile. It’s pretty clear some players value the map/modifiers and not the exp and others highly value the exp and don’t mind running a blank tile. Death would have a penalty either way but the player gets agency in choosing which loss they take.

Another variation: The XP penalty stays, but instead allow keeping the map in exchange for gold. A player can afford to save a map every once in a while but it gets more expensive for harder content and repeat deaths.