After reading the responses to this post... I have lost some hope in this game actually improving. There is probably sub 25k people that actually like the level of punishment in this game, but this tiny proportion of players make up over half of the forum users. This kinda leaves me hoping that GGG doesn't read their own forums lol. My estimates may be a little off for now, but if mage defenses ever get nerf'd to the level every other class has had to deal with since EA launch... my estimates will be far more accurate.
As much as ES probably should be nerfed, I'd faaaaar sooner prefer they just buff Armor/Life appropriately and tighten up their math and balance on enemy damage spikes. Flat out, there should NOT be situations like this: I once ran a Hidden Grotto that had some Vaal mobs in it, including the big tall guy with the massive sword. I ran into one rare of that type and it cleaved 2500 Life per hit and my warrior only has 3200 right now (since try as I might getting 150+ life and 30+ STR on each piece of gear is remarkably difficult if you don't have 500 div to splurge). I managed to kill it. I encountered another rare of the same mob in the same map a minute or so later. It did less than 200 per hit. It's situations like that which need to be seriously dialed back, and it's situations like that which start to make the "git gud" arguments fall flat, because it's situations like that which lead to so many cries of one shots. It's not my fault the only tiers that drop the ilvl I need to progress my gear are so badly balanced that I can steamroll them with hardly a care only for this sort of crap to happen out of no where. And it's not like the pacing of the game gives you time to check every rare's mod list to see if it's stacked with extra damage mods when the frame you see it you're already being attacked. It's just as zoom as PoE1 in the worst ways.
It's simple, build some defenses and don't run maps with 3-4 damage modifiers on them problem solved.
This ^^^^^
Do enough maps at a difficulty your character can handle, upgrade gear or review your build, improve, overcome.
The only instance where I can understand the frustration is bug- or balance-related deaths. But these issues should not be "fixed" by indirectly trivializing the core character progression mechanics of the game.
Dernière édition par Jjampong#0076, le 5 févr. 2025 00:02:47
If you want to have an honest conversation, start with the points I made in my OP. Otherwise, you're just stalking me to troll, and I'll thank you for bumping the thread for more exposure. Do that, and I'll engage with you. That means making a genuine attempt to counterpoint my presented reasons to change one-attempt. Respond respectfully, and I'll engage with you. That means dropping the "baby league" bullshit and other unnecessary attacks on my character or that of others that share my position to remove one-attempts.
Here, I'll even make it easy for you, and spoiler them right here for ease of quote. And for the hell of it, I'll even include my anticipatory responses of the most common pushbacks I've seen against changing one-attempt for you to re-read, just to be sure you can bolster your reply to its fullest potential. There are four main points. I'd like to emphasize the negative feedback loop as the strongest point to be made against the punitive one-attempt system, as such things are Game Design 101 to endeavor to avoid. Respectfully provide a counter to each of them:
Spoiler
- Softcore league has certain expectations.
Death should be meaningful (lose something, like exp) but you shouldn't be losing too much. Softcore should NOT be losing loot, map mechs, AND waystone on top of the already significant experience loss. I'm not aware of a single game THIS punitive that isn't by design a rogue-like/lite with baked in hardcore mechanics. PoE's classic inspiration of D2 dropped your body and gold. Many like games since have had little to any death penalties beyond time spent. Last Epoch only costs you the bonus reward for a Monolith node, or time to build up another attempt for the Monolith or Shade boss. The extremely punitive death penalty in PoE2 goes against expectations of a softcore league. Nobody signed up for this.
- The stress of survival feels too close to Hardcore
As mentioned, Softcore has certain expectations. Dying is never desirable, even if all you ultimately lose is time to return and reattempt. Some people like the thrill of that threat, but I gave up on hardcore ages ago because I no longer want to risk the loss in time investment and got tired of too many one-shots in the likes of PoE1 or bullshit moments in any number of other like ARPGs. The stress of one bad move or one bullshit moment is too damn much. I want to play for fun, not for threat, and softcore is a threat. It makes it a chore and more frustrating than it should be thanks to the threat of losing my entire map (plus all loot, mechanics, and the waystone on top of the already significant exp loss for rate of gain at 90+).
- Dying and losing your map is intensely demotivating and demoralizing.
This is made even worse by the game's current abhorrent state of balance, especially for Armor/Life as I only have a warrior in maps right now. When you can run dozens of maps at the more or less same level of juicing and suddenly get one shot by a rare, or a normal attack from a boss that ignores dodge (or hell, a bug, like the Forge boss's sword not blocking the inferno's damage once no matter where I stood), or any number of bullshit moments beyond your control in the hectic nature of this game's game play, it feels all that much worse losing so much.
- Losing the entire map creates significant risk of a Negative Feedback Loop
Map sustain droughts happen. I've had times where I was juicing 300+% around T9 or 10 and would get next to no waystones, and they'd never be above 4 or 5. Knowing what my build can more or less handle, it also means certain map mods brick the waystone before I can even use it (I miss Scouring and Alteration orbs SO friggen much because of this, such a weird choice to remove them entirely rather than making them rare), further negatively impacting map sustain. If I then die once or twice--my fault or otherwise--I could risk going back many tiers worth of maps, which any further drought will only then make even worse. It feels horrible losing map sustain for the tier you're able to reliably clear. This reason alone should be all GGG should need to bring back 6-attempt maps, or at least return to the drawing board and find a sensible compromise (Hell, I'd be fine with 3 attempts as a compromise, so long as I can then town portal as much as I want (just prevent use of TP during boss encounters if that could pose a problem)).
Spoiler
- Players will be incentivized to glass cannon/skip defenses with multiple attempts
Glass cannon builds capable of nuking the screen are already the meta, both in PoE1 and in PoE2. In fact, it could just as easily be argued that glass cannon/screen nuke build players are incentivized to play such builds more as a result of one-attempt. Knowing there's only one chance, the "path of least resistance" mindset leads to just killing everything on screen before it can threaten you. Without knowing precise numbers, it's only anecdotal that there would be any more or any fewer players "skipping" defenses. Besides, as anyone would quickly discover, you still need a viable minimum, so this isn't a strong point to favor punitive one-attempt.
- Players will push harder content than they should and die constantly to clear maps by using most or all 6 portals.
Leveling up is still desirable. Those last 30ish passive points (as most players will be tickling the taint of level 70 if not leveled passed it by end of campaign) can still significantly benefit your build. The exp penalty is already enough of a disincentive to not smash your head against a brick wall hoping it crumbles. I fail to see how an almost certainly minority of players is going to negatively impact anyone else, nor the trade league economy that a properly played build juicing T15+ isn't already inflating.
- Death needs to be meaningful and is a teachable moment.
Exp loss is already meaningful, and there are plenty of other ways for GGG to make death meaningful. They could downgrade the map's level, costing you the chance of drops at the ilvl you need; You could lose mods on your map, thus weakening it; You could have a re-open cost through some currency charge, new or existing. And beyond that, there's nothing teachable about the game auto-targeting the wrong enemy, or being pushed into a corner that traversal/dodge can't push out of, or suddenly encountering a super juiced rare that is doing easily 10 times or more the damage of any other similar rare (even of the same mob type), or just some unlucky moment that you simply could not react to like a crit or bug or something lost in the visual clutter. Nothing is teachable when you're one shot or fighting the game more than the monsters. And with this game's mob damage balance just being "Line go up", there's nothing teachable about mobs that can zoom across the screen with damage you can't reliably recover from or avoid that offer no mechanical strategy in a game that puts so much more emphasis on player skill, tactics, and reaction. Nothing is teachable about being hit by the equivalent of a Golden Gun in content you're clearing that doesn't even raise your resting heart rate.
- The death is your fault and you should learn how to play/git gud/you're just bad
All the more reason for multiple portals. How am I expected to learn from deaths legitimately my fault if I can't re-attempt the encounter that killed me? What is teachable about dying to something you didn't even register? What is teachable about misjudging a boss attack and not being able to go back to try again? And so what if someone is not a good player, do they not deserve a more casual experience that allows them to get better? No one deserves for their time to feel like it was wasted, especially a video game we play for fun. No matter a player's skill or fault for a death, we signed up for Softcorefor a reason.
No thank you, it's full of fallacies and entitlment and you don't understand the points -we- make.
If playing in Softcore feels like Hardcore for you, then yeah, you need a Babycore where you just can't die, cause else, all possible events causing possible death would stress you too much.
PoE2 is a risk vs reward game. If you remove the risk, the game becomes trivialized. What is the point of even playing if there’s no risk for failure and all I have to do is invest time?
So why is there such a high risk while there is hardly any reward. That is the whole problem of the game. Rewards are sooo low that any risk is too high. If they should increase the rewards I would be happy to take a bit more risk.
PoE2 is a risk vs reward game. If you remove the risk, the game becomes trivialized. What is the point of even playing if there’s no risk for failure and all I have to do is invest time?
So why is there such a high risk while there is hardly any reward. That is the whole problem of the game. Rewards are sooo low that any risk is too high. If they should increase the rewards I would be happy to take a bit more risk.
There is probably sub 25k people that actually like the level of punishment in this game, but this tiny proportion of players make up over half of the forum users.
I'd love to see your methods for deriving such specific values. Do bless us with your data omnipotence, master.
PoE2 is a risk vs reward game. If you remove the risk, the game becomes trivialized. What is the point of even playing if there’s no risk for failure and all I have to do is invest time?
So why is there such a high risk while there is hardly any reward. That is the whole problem of the game. Rewards are sooo low that any risk is too high. If they should increase the rewards I would be happy to take a bit more risk.
Then why are you taking the risks ?
Aaah, there is you again. Defending the game in every possible way. Not accepting any criticism and always attacking the people saying anything negative about the game. Why don't you spend your time playing your wonderful game instead of posting here?
To answer your question I am not taking risks anymore. I quit waiting for better times if they will ever come for this game.
