One-attempt Maps are a massive middle finger, PLEASE change it

"

Echothesis#7320 a écrit :

Um, every Diablo game has difficulty modes? Simple damage multipliers do the job well enough.

As for "just play white low tier waystones" - sure, but you omit small detail: there is absolutely no loot there, poe is balanced around breaking it with specific few builds. Point of difficulty levels is that player can still visit and complete all content with less effort. Poe endgame content was always hard locked to T14+ maps.

"

cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

Disagree. It is not too punishing at all. You have unlimited waystones. Dying and losing a singular waystone is not a major punishment. You just run another.

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You can STILL learn all the lessons you want to learn, even within this system. Not within the same map, but across many maps.

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"Bigger customers" aren't being chased away. The whales of whales are absolutely loving it. Can't think of a single major streamer that has brought up the 1 death as a problem worthy of quitting the game, or even a problem at all. Ever ask why that is? Could it be because they....are more experienced and die less? Or understand that dying and losing a map's worth of items is pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of playing the game? Does it really take that special of a player to recognize that?

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We aren't playing HC.....losing a map isn't anywhere NEAR losing an entire character. And yet folks who complain about this are constantly comparing this to "hardcore". That is answer enough how ridiculous these arguments are.

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it's just a small collection of people who continue to play much like the guy above, lowering his resistances and swapping gear regularly, and wondering why they die and raging at the GAME rather than fixing the problems themselves. And so few people even attempt to "plan" for rng within their builds and map rolling. It's always, ALWAYS the game's fault.

"

N3vangel#0037 a écrit :

PoE2 is a risk vs reward game. If you remove the risk, the game becomes trivialized. What is the point of even playing if there’s no risk for failure and all I have to do is invest time?

"

Sakanabi#6664 a écrit :

Your percents don't add up because I'm a player for which is PoE 2 difficult just enough. I don't want it harder or easier.

Also

1. I play about 20-40 hours per week and feel pretty good (I don't care about people who rush forward, why should I).
2. Yes, if you play on potato then you will suffer.
3. Classic lie used by PoE 2 haters. Try another build than your favorite streamer suggested. It's also fun. Just not as fast probably. I'm curious what "argument" will people like you use when those "3 builds" will be nerfed.

"

theGattz#5205 a écrit :

That`s your problem right there, you report the game only on your preferences and not on everyone elses feedback.

"

CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 a écrit :

This has got to be changed. Flat out, has GOT to be changed. I've never encountered a game that has screamed at me this loud to just stop playing because of how little it respects my time. The current state of balancing is bad enough (especially Warrior/Mace and how bad Armor/Life is as a defense that can't even handle being hit by physical attacks stronger than a wet noodle, the thing it's supposed to defend against). We already lose 10% exp which is a loooooooooot of experience once you creep past level 90 with how long it takes to gain. You're already fixing one-attempts for pinnacle, so fix it for everything else, too.

Remove the map reset on death (because campaign does the same thing, all mobs respawn and map resets as if you never entered), retain any incomplete mechanics, and give us back 6 portals already. One-attempt is a terrible mechanic for numerous reasons:

Spoiler

- Softcore league has certain expectations.

Death should be meaningful (lose something, like exp) but you shouldn't be losing too much. Softcore should NOT be losing loot, map mechs, AND waystone on top of the already significant experience loss. I'm not aware of a single game THIS punitive that isn't by design a rogue-like/lite with baked in hardcore mechanics. PoE's classic inspiration of D2 dropped your body and gold. Many like games since have had little to any death penalties beyond time spent. Last Epoch only costs you the bonus reward for a Monolith node, or time to build up another attempt for the Monolith or Shade boss. The extremely punitive death penalty in PoE2 goes against expectations of a softcore league. Nobody signed up for this.

- The stress of survival feels too close to Hardcore

As mentioned, Softcore has certain expectations. Dying is never desirable, even if all you ultimately lose is time to return and reattempt. Some people like the thrill of that threat, but I gave up on hardcore ages ago because I no longer want to risk the loss in time investment and got tired of too many one-shots in the likes of PoE1 or bullshit moments in any number of other like ARPGs. The stress of one bad move or one bullshit moment is too damn much. I want to play for fun, not for threat, and softcore is a threat. It makes it a chore and more frustrating than it should be thanks to the threat of losing my entire map (plus all loot, mechanics, and the waystone on top of the already significant exp loss for rate of gain at 90+).

- Dying and losing your map is intensely demotivating and demoralizing.

This is made even worse by the game's current abhorrent state of balance, especially for Armor/Life as I only have a warrior in maps right now. When you can run dozens of maps at the more or less same level of juicing and suddenly get one shot by a rare, or a normal attack from a boss that ignores dodge (or hell, a bug, like the Forge boss's sword not blocking the inferno's damage once no matter where I stood), or any number of bullshit moments beyond your control in the hectic nature of this game's game play, it feels all that much worse losing so much.

- Losing the entire map creates significant risk of a Negative Feedback Loop

Map sustain droughts happen. I've had times where I was juicing 300+% around T9 or 10 and would get next to no waystones, and they'd never be above 4 or 5. Knowing what my build can more or less handle, it also means certain map mods brick the waystone before I can even use it (I miss Scouring and Alteration orbs SO friggen much because of this, such a weird choice to remove them entirely rather than making them rare), further negatively impacting map sustain. If I then die once or twice--my fault or otherwise--I could risk going back many tiers worth of maps, which any further drought will only then make even worse. It feels horrible losing map sustain for the tier you're able to reliably clear. This reason alone should be all GGG should need to bring back 6-attempt maps, or at least return to the drawing board and find a sensible compromise (Hell, I'd be fine with 3 attempts as a compromise, so long as I can then town portal as much as I want (just prevent use of TP during boss encounters if that could pose a problem)).

I've heard many counter arguments favoring one-attempt, but aside from my points laid out above, here are the reasons why these counter arguments fall flat:

Spoiler

- Players will be incentivized to glass cannon/skip defenses with multiple attempts

Glass cannon builds capable of nuking the screen are already the meta, both in PoE1 and in PoE2. In fact, it could just as easily be argued that glass cannon/screen nuke build players are incentivized to play such builds more as a result of one-attempt. Knowing there's only one chance, the "path of least resistance" mindset leads to just killing everything on screen before it can threaten you. Without knowing precise numbers, it's only anecdotal that there would be any more or any fewer players "skipping" defenses. Besides, as anyone would quickly discover, you still need a viable minimum, so this isn't a strong point to favor punitive one-attempt.

- Players will push harder content than they should and die constantly to clear maps by using most or all 6 portals.

Leveling up is still desirable. Those last 30ish passive points (as most players will be tickling the taint of level 70 if not leveled passed it by end of campaign) can still significantly benefit your build. The exp penalty is already enough of a disincentive to not smash your head against a brick wall hoping it crumbles. I fail to see how an almost certainly minority of players is going to negatively impact anyone else, nor the trade league economy that a properly played build juicing T15+ isn't already inflating.

- Death needs to be meaningful and is a teachable moment.

Exp loss is already meaningful, and there are plenty of other ways for GGG to make death meaningful. They could downgrade the map's level, costing you the chance of drops at the ilvl you need; You could lose mods on your map, thus weakening it; You could have a re-open cost through some currency charge, new or existing. And beyond that, there's nothing teachable about the game auto-targeting the wrong enemy, or being pushed into a corner that traversal/dodge can't push out of, or suddenly encountering a super juiced rare that is doing easily 10 times or more the damage of any other similar rare (even of the same mob type), or just some unlucky moment that you simply could not react to like a crit or bug or something lost in the visual clutter. Nothing is teachable when you're one shot or fighting the game more than the monsters. And with this game's mob damage balance just being "Line go up", there's nothing teachable about mobs that can zoom across the screen with damage you can't reliably recover from or avoid that offer no mechanical strategy in a game that puts so much more emphasis on player skill, tactics, and reaction. Nothing is teachable about being hit by the equivalent of a Golden Gun in content you're clearing that doesn't even raise your resting heart rate.

- The death is your fault and you should learn how to play/git gud/you're just bad

All the more reason for multiple portals. How am I expected to learn from deaths legitimately my fault if I can't re-attempt the encounter that killed me? What is teachable about dying to something you didn't even register? What is teachable about misjudging a boss attack and not being able to go back to try again? And so what if someone is not a good player, do they not deserve a more casual experience that allows them to get better? No one deserves for their time to feel like it was wasted, especially a video game we play for fun. No matter a player's skill or fault for a death, we signed up for Softcore for a reason.

"

dantemaximov#5390 a écrit :

"

CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 a écrit :

This has got to be changed. Flat out, has GOT to be changed. I've never encountered a game that has screamed at me this loud to just stop playing because of how little it respects my time. The current state of balancing is bad enough (especially Warrior/Mace and how bad Armor/Life is as a defense that can't even handle being hit by physical attacks stronger than a wet noodle, the thing it's supposed to defend against). We already lose 10% exp which is a loooooooooot of experience once you creep past level 90 with how long it takes to gain. You're already fixing one-attempts for pinnacle, so fix it for everything else, too.

Remove the map reset on death (because campaign does the same thing, all mobs respawn and map resets as if you never entered), retain any incomplete mechanics, and give us back 6 portals already. One-attempt is a terrible mechanic for numerous reasons:

Spoiler

- Softcore league has certain expectations.

Death should be meaningful (lose something, like exp) but you shouldn't be losing too much. Softcore should NOT be losing loot, map mechs, AND waystone on top of the already significant experience loss. I'm not aware of a single game THIS punitive that isn't by design a rogue-like/lite with baked in hardcore mechanics. PoE's classic inspiration of D2 dropped your body and gold. Many like games since have had little to any death penalties beyond time spent. Last Epoch only costs you the bonus reward for a Monolith node, or time to build up another attempt for the Monolith or Shade boss. The extremely punitive death penalty in PoE2 goes against expectations of a softcore league. Nobody signed up for this.

- The stress of survival feels too close to Hardcore

As mentioned, Softcore has certain expectations. Dying is never desirable, even if all you ultimately lose is time to return and reattempt. Some people like the thrill of that threat, but I gave up on hardcore ages ago because I no longer want to risk the loss in time investment and got tired of too many one-shots in the likes of PoE1 or bullshit moments in any number of other like ARPGs. The stress of one bad move or one bullshit moment is too damn much. I want to play for fun, not for threat, and softcore is a threat. It makes it a chore and more frustrating than it should be thanks to the threat of losing my entire map (plus all loot, mechanics, and the waystone on top of the already significant exp loss for rate of gain at 90+).

- Dying and losing your map is intensely demotivating and demoralizing.

This is made even worse by the game's current abhorrent state of balance, especially for Armor/Life as I only have a warrior in maps right now. When you can run dozens of maps at the more or less same level of juicing and suddenly get one shot by a rare, or a normal attack from a boss that ignores dodge (or hell, a bug, like the Forge boss's sword not blocking the inferno's damage once no matter where I stood), or any number of bullshit moments beyond your control in the hectic nature of this game's game play, it feels all that much worse losing so much.

- Losing the entire map creates significant risk of a Negative Feedback Loop

Map sustain droughts happen. I've had times where I was juicing 300+% around T9 or 10 and would get next to no waystones, and they'd never be above 4 or 5. Knowing what my build can more or less handle, it also means certain map mods brick the waystone before I can even use it (I miss Scouring and Alteration orbs SO friggen much because of this, such a weird choice to remove them entirely rather than making them rare), further negatively impacting map sustain. If I then die once or twice--my fault or otherwise--I could risk going back many tiers worth of maps, which any further drought will only then make even worse. It feels horrible losing map sustain for the tier you're able to reliably clear. This reason alone should be all GGG should need to bring back 6-attempt maps, or at least return to the drawing board and find a sensible compromise (Hell, I'd be fine with 3 attempts as a compromise, so long as I can then town portal as much as I want (just prevent use of TP during boss encounters if that could pose a problem)).

I've heard many counter arguments favoring one-attempt, but aside from my points laid out above, here are the reasons why these counter arguments fall flat:

Spoiler

- Players will be incentivized to glass cannon/skip defenses with multiple attempts

Glass cannon builds capable of nuking the screen are already the meta, both in PoE1 and in PoE2. In fact, it could just as easily be argued that glass cannon/screen nuke build players are incentivized to play such builds more as a result of one-attempt. Knowing there's only one chance, the "path of least resistance" mindset leads to just killing everything on screen before it can threaten you. Without knowing precise numbers, it's only anecdotal that there would be any more or any fewer players "skipping" defenses. Besides, as anyone would quickly discover, you still need a viable minimum, so this isn't a strong point to favor punitive one-attempt.

- Players will push harder content than they should and die constantly to clear maps by using most or all 6 portals.

Leveling up is still desirable. Those last 30ish passive points (as most players will be tickling the taint of level 70 if not leveled passed it by end of campaign) can still significantly benefit your build. The exp penalty is already enough of a disincentive to not smash your head against a brick wall hoping it crumbles. I fail to see how an almost certainly minority of players is going to negatively impact anyone else, nor the trade league economy that a properly played build juicing T15+ isn't already inflating.

- Death needs to be meaningful and is a teachable moment.

Exp loss is already meaningful, and there are plenty of other ways for GGG to make death meaningful. They could downgrade the map's level, costing you the chance of drops at the ilvl you need; You could lose mods on your map, thus weakening it; You could have a re-open cost through some currency charge, new or existing. And beyond that, there's nothing teachable about the game auto-targeting the wrong enemy, or being pushed into a corner that traversal/dodge can't push out of, or suddenly encountering a super juiced rare that is doing easily 10 times or more the damage of any other similar rare (even of the same mob type), or just some unlucky moment that you simply could not react to like a crit or bug or something lost in the visual clutter. Nothing is teachable when you're one shot or fighting the game more than the monsters. And with this game's mob damage balance just being "Line go up", there's nothing teachable about mobs that can zoom across the screen with damage you can't reliably recover from or avoid that offer no mechanical strategy in a game that puts so much more emphasis on player skill, tactics, and reaction. Nothing is teachable about being hit by the equivalent of a Golden Gun in content you're clearing that doesn't even raise your resting heart rate.

- The death is your fault and you should learn how to play/git gud/you're just bad

All the more reason for multiple portals. How am I expected to learn from deaths legitimately my fault if I can't re-attempt the encounter that killed me? What is teachable about dying to something you didn't even register? What is teachable about misjudging a boss attack and not being able to go back to try again? And so what if someone is not a good player, do they not deserve a more casual experience that allows them to get better? No one deserves for their time to feel like it was wasted, especially a video game we play for fun. No matter a player's skill or fault for a death, we signed up for Softcore for a reason.

+1 to this post!! totally agree. Many players are passing lvl 90+ and are starting to see exactly these problems.

"

cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

Lol you write this.....and yet you are commenting on everyone else's feedback almost exclusively.

Feedback is SUPPOSED to be "only on your preferences", yet you are attempting the opposite.

"no one wants to complete a single map in one hour or be forced to copy-paste the same build." -a straight up lie about the game, combined with speaking for everyone else.

This sentence colors both your posts....and its just not based in reality.


And when you try to speak for other people, like you did in both posts....it only takes ONE person to say something different to completely invalidate your whole "feedback"