Why do people who hate RNG play POE?

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mazul a écrit :

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Zanixx a écrit :

I don't expect to have a fully-functioning, 6L'd evil exile exterminator by week 2 of a league. Some people do. Therefore a lot of those players get frustrated.

The people that want the RNG decreased usually are far more okay with on average making it harder to obtain the great items than it is now.

It is the people that want to be "lucky" that prefer as much RNG as possible. The people that want to grind and grind for hours and hours to slowly build up enough materials to craft (not gamble) the equips they want, are those who don't want any easy mode for anyone.

Currently there are a few people who have easy "silver plate" mode due to luck :P.

Man I hate playing against my brother in board games involving dice rolling. No shit at all: the dude is phenomenally lucky in rolling dice. It's insane. It's not even just against me, but a group of them play weekly and they actually had to change the type of games they play because he would just dominate with his horse-shoe up his ass. It's not even that he knows a system or how to roll the dice - it literally is purely just fucking luck.

I know for sure there are "lucky" people who constantly just luck into amazing loot or 5/6L constantly. Those people probably are like "wtf is everyone's problem - there's no issue with RNG..." <headshot>

I just want a balanced system. That's it. I want to put in my time. I want to work my ass off. But after I do that... after I put in my time: I want some rewards. It's that simple. I'm not asking for ~ /load6Lgodmodecharacrer console commands. Not even fucking close.

We don't hate RNG but the game is based on RNG where you have to play 1000s of hours to be good and we might not like spending 1000s of hours on something that isn't useful to our life, I personally dont mind spending that much hours for fun, but for most of us, there is life.

you can see that most of top streamer people have no life, or use poe to earn money to live.

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Hollowjoints a écrit :

Your under the assumption that when people ask for less RNG, what there really asking for is to get gear faster. Or that more RNG equates to a longer/harder game.

There are plenty of ways to make it hard to acquire good gear. heck the leveling system is an example of this. what people are really complaining about when it comes to RNG is that most of the time you never really feel like your progressing with it. blowing a ton of currency and ending ending up with less then what you started with is a sure way to make people quit. I'm sure you can agree that if someone blows 200 fusings on an item they should be at least entitled to something.

An example could be say, each time you roll a mod on a particular item that item gains an increased chance of rolling the higher form of that mod. Obviously there could be a cap but i think a system like that would make spending currency feel more rewarding and avoid horror stories like spending a thousand fusing only to end up with a 3-link.

making a game less random doesn't have to make it easier and certainly doesn't mean the game has to be "beatable" in 2 weeks. Its about balance and that balance can be difficult to acquire which is why many companies like GGG fall back on the RNG system. because its easy. its sloppy, unintuitive, and far often, unrewarding. but its easy.

Since you have referred to me specifically, I will respond about me specifically.

First off, yes, I do make the assumption in the first paragraph; the reason is, that's about the only significantly random thing in the game. It's true that your damage has a "range", and that in theory you could roll the bottom end of a 64-180 damage bow 100 times in a row. However, unlike Fusings which you *might* sit down one day and spend 100 on trying to get a 6L, with bow attacks you are probably going on 100 uses per minute. At some point, Statistical Significance will kick in due to sheer volume.



As for my "expectation that 200 fusings should net me something" in the next paragraph, the answer to that is: No, despite what you may post, I do not.

I play Poker. A lot. After a particularly bad day, I will say to myself "man, I really shoulda folded on those 2 hands", or "man, I just couldn't catch any cards at all". What I have never said is "man, that casino really should comp me for all the hands I lost". Most casinos will comp for time played, but I don't know of any that comp for actual losses.

If you are voluntarily playing any game with a gambling element, and you DON'T accept that, then it is my opinion that you are doing it wrong.

I'm sure I'm going to catch hell for that statement, but so be it.



Lastly, as for the statement "Its about balance and that balance can be difficult to acquire which is why many companies like GGG fall back on the RNG system", you take it as being lazy, I take it as a design decision. For me, it's preferable. If they were to remove the gambling element, I would have an *immediate* loss of interest in playing. Said another way, --I like gambling--. Would said reduction in enjoyment cause me to stop playing the game? Maybe, maybe not... as was stated elsewhere, there aren't a whole lot of "worthwhile" competitors in the genre right now. If I did leave, I may have even made a forum post about desiring more gambling... who knows.

I'll even throw out a prediction: I'd have gotten trash talked in said thread if I did make it by people who support the current system. And I imagine I'm going to get some in this one as well.





So there's my take on it.

As a public service to anyone who wants to take a shot at me because "I'm only making this post because I'm one of the guys who is super rich and want's to keep everyone else down, let me link some things:

This is my main Ambush's character's chestpiece:



I got that by buying for 7c a 5L widowsilk robe, using 60 chroms on it to get BBRRG, and then using 3 alchs, 2 scours, and 3 chaos on it to get the mods.

When I got it, I jumped out of my chair. GG endgame? perhaps not; I'd rather have a 6L Shav's. but darn if it wasn't better than the ~200ES 4L I was using beforehand, all the way up through level 78.

For other success stories, I've got 2 items I've self-found:

which I consider pretty darn good for the "Summonporter" build I'm running. One was just 3 days ago, the other was way back when I was in my 50s.

So I'm really lucky, right?

Let me link these:

I am in need up updates to all of those (and rather desperate need in the case of the gloves and, arguably, the helmet). I have picked up numerous 4L pieces in my maps/piety runs, and used more than a few alchs and chaos on them to try and get ones that don't blow. To date, I haven't; the end result just ends up going to vendor, with me saying "better luck next time". IIR doesn't mean much to my character; I'd happily trade that off for other mods. But as I'm busy playing the game and not forum-hunting for "deals", my ability to increase them is unknown.

And I WANT it that way. I may not improve any of them before Ambush ends. And I wouldn't have it any other way.



Further post note: my total "currency intake" in Ambush to date has been 1 exalt, ~40 chaos, ~40 alch, and a few hundred chrom and alts. Most of the alts have gone into me rerolling strongboxes to try and get the Facets and Unity mods; unity I haven't seen, and I did get a facets, but the game, for some reason, deigned not to give me credit for it. And no, I didn't die in the fight, and I have one of the gems in my inventory right now to show I did in fact finish opening it (the devs can verify that part if they'd like, since I have no proof I can hand to you specifically).

So I am definitely NOT among the game's rich... and I imagine I've used a greater % of my currency for actual rolls than most here have.

I don't hate RNG, but it's something that should have moderation in its use. I like PoE for the potential it could offer in character building diversity and skill interactions. It used to have more of this. Unfortunately, much of that potential has been lost in bad balancing decisions and excessive layers of RNG.

^^


Interesting study was done "back in the day" when they were able to get away with a lot more than they can now...

but what they did was they put electrodes on the bottom of a dog's kennel. Randomly throughout the day they would turn on the electricity to a random half of the dog's kennel. What they found was interesting: at first the dogs would stand up and move over to the other side of the kennel to avoid getting shocked.... however ultimately those dogs would just drop down and "take it" - getting shocked even though they knew that they could easily get up and move to the other side.

Take it for however you want to - that's the glorious thing about psychology. I just find it an interesting little tidbit about "random."

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Isbox1 a écrit :

but what they did was they put electrodes on the bottom of a dog's kennel. Randomly throughout the day they would turn on the electricity to a random half of the dog's kennel. What they found was interesting: at first the dogs would stand up and move over to the other side of the kennel to avoid getting shocked.... however ultimately those dogs would just drop down and "take it" - getting shocked even though they knew that they could easily get up and move to the other side.

so uh

poe = kennel
we = dogs
ggg = scientists

moral of the story: we are complacent creatures of habit who are just "taking" ggg's thick rng up our supple dignities BUY STASH TABS BUY MTX BUY SUPPORTER PACKS

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themousemaster a écrit :

Since you have referred to me specifically, I will respond about me specifically.

First off, yes, I do make the assumption in the first paragraph; the reason is, that's about the only significantly random thing in the game. It's true that your damage has a "range", and that in theory you could roll the bottom end of a 64-180 damage bow 100 times in a row. However, unlike Fusings which you *might* sit down one day and spend 100 on trying to get a 6L, with bow attacks you are probably going on 100 uses per minute. At some point, Statistical Significance will kick in due to sheer volume.

Long post so forgive me for cutting it up a bit. Your reasoning here does not explain why more RNG equates to a harder/longer game. nor did it argue why you would think people who want less RNG simply want gear faster. It attempts to explain that less RNG makes for a shorter game. which even then it doesn't do well because it only explains how it could potentially make it easier. no one expects GGG to lower the RNG without replacing it with a better system that makes it just as hard. just less random. as i explained lower in my post people like me simply want the loot system to feel more rewarding. not to receive that reward faster. its the same reason why fewer people complain about the leveling system then ppl do about the crafting system. getting to lvl 100 takes an insanely long time. but people rarely complain. why? cause every time you kill a monster, you get some xp. and that xp always equates to getting more levels. unless you die. but thats a loss based on skill, not just random luck.

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themousemaster a écrit :

As for my "expectation that 200 fusings should net me something" in the next paragraph, the answer to that is: No, despite what you may post, I do not.

I play Poker. A lot. After a particularly bad day, I will say to myself "man, I really shoulda folded on those 2 hands", or "man, I just couldn't catch any cards at all". What I have never said is "man, that casino really should comp me for all the hands I lost". Most casinos will comp for time played, but I don't know of any that comp for actual losses.

If you are voluntarily playing any game with a gambling element, and you DON'T accept that, then it is my opinion that you are doing it wrong.

I'm sure I'm going to catch hell for that statement, but so be it.

So you like to gamble. all that really indicates is that you like the system. not that the system is better, the most suited, or the most preferred. Nor have i asked that RNG be removed completely. You use a card game as an example as to why you like random luck yet fail to realize that even in a poker game there are limits intentionally put in place to reduce its random factor. a deck of cards comes in decks of 52 for a reason. Try playing with a deck of hundreds of cards. were every deck has a random assortment of card types. most of which are useless in any hand. then you might have a better comparison to our current RNG system. and did you really just tell me that in order to play a game i have to be complicit in, and accepting of, everything in that game regardless of the fact that the game in question is continually being tweaked literally week after week? forgive me for not finding the game perfect. You do realize im aloud to have complaints while still enjoying the game right?

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themousemaster a écrit :

Lastly, as for the statement "Its about balance and that balance can be difficult to acquire which is why many companies like GGG fall back on the RNG system", you take it as being lazy, I take it as a design decision. For me, it's preferable. If they were to remove the gambling element, I would have an *immediate* loss of interest in playing. Said another way, --I like gambling--. Would said reduction in enjoyment cause me to stop playing the game? Maybe, maybe not... as was stated elsewhere, there aren't a whole lot of "worthwhile" competitors in the genre right now. If I did leave, I may have even made a forum post about desiring more gambling... who knows.

I'll even throw out a prediction: I'd have gotten trash talked in said thread if I did make it by people who support the current system. And I imagine I'm going to get some in this one as well

Your right on both accounts. That i think its lazy and that its a design decision. a lazy design decision. And as i stated higher up. just because you like it doesn't mean its the way it should be. it explains why you defend it. and understandably so. but it neither disproves my statement nor compounds any of yours.

Cut out the rest cause i really dont care about any of that stuff. regardless of whether or not your a "rich" player, i'm not arguing with you based on that. making the rest of your post pointless to me.

Big difference between being able to farm hell bosses with junk items in D2 to having to do a dull grind to max out resists just to try for endless shit drops here.

BORING!

Some who oppose the low odds of finding good stuff (which is valuable in large part due to being hard to find) see the system in a very black and white way so that if you don't find something of considerable value you might as well not have found anything. The truth is, however, that there is a steady reliable income in lower currency and lower value items but many choose to gamble that income away via the systems of high risk instead of accumulating it to attain what they wish to attain the reliable way (that is, trading for it). You see people asking for a recipy for X fusings for a 6L when that already exists: buy an item that is already linked (and there are even people offering linking services for a set price). Most people who own an expensive coveted item didn't get them as a lucky drop, they simply managed their finances in a way that accumulated their minor occurrences of luck over a long enough period of time.

It seems to me that underlying the opposition to low probabilities are often one or both of two things: 1. objecting to trading being a necessary part of the game for the acquisition of rare items and 2. objecting to the difficulty of raising funds for desired items. This game has goals that may be beyond what people expect games to have. Those expectations need to be adjusted: it is not a game where the average person can get a BiS item in a week; your goals need to be longer term.

tldr; if you want a porsche, don't blame rng when you spend your paycheck on scratchers instead of saving it up.

Maybe it's because currency is not simply symbolic and is instead easy to spend but I seriously recommend taking a look at your orb finances / spending habits if you are struggling to raise funds. Keeping track and having goals helps.